First briefing - beginning about 9pm local time
Bernard Ingham
[tape time 1.20] … to make myself available, as they say - here I am. Um, just a little bit of background. The Prime Minister came back - this is unattributable British sources - the Prime Minister came back about 5.45. The, the the - sort of restricted session didn’t seem to go on very long. Round about that. This is Paris time. And she joined the Foreign Secretary, the Ambassador and his wife. Peter Morrison arrived I suppose at about 5 o’clock or thereabouts. There was myself and Charles Powell and Mrs Crawford there. And we had tea and cakes, and a chat and whatever. And then the hairdresser came about an hour later. She - the hairdresser came and she went upstairs a little before 6.45 and we assembled in Peter Morrison’s room - room number two - at 7.15. That was overlooking the courtyard, we could hear you all. [laughter - someone says "we couldn’t hear you", Ingham laughing too]. Well, it’s very difficult, it’s rather high up you see. We couldn’t see. I heard the noise though. ["Maybe ?next time"] Now stop it. And I suppose we heard just after - what, 6.30, no 7.30, um, and you know what happens from then on. After the, um, the Prime Minister had spoken to Denis Thatcher and her family and Norman Tebbit, expressing … the Chief Whip, George Younger and Kenneth Baker expressing thanks to them for all their efforts and of course she is going to fight a second round.Peter Allen, ITN
Sorry I missed all that. You said Denis Thatcher, family, Chief Whip …Bernard Ingham
Norman … well, err, umm Mark, I think she talked to Carol too, Norman Tebbit certainly, Chief Whip, Kenneth Baker and George Younger.Journalist
Did she call Mark in America or is he over here?Bernard Ingham
I think he is over here.Peter Allen, ITN
Was that all in a succession of phone calls then Bernard?Bernard Ingham
Yeah.Journalist
Who actually then conveyed the result to, err, Peter Morrison?Bernard Ingham
Chief …Journalist
Could we wait for the microphone?Journalist
Sorry. [Some indistinct comments, microphone arrives] Who actually conveyed the result to …Bernard Ingham
I think the Chief Whip conveyed it to Peter Morrison.Journalist
Were the phone calls from Paris to London or the other way round or a mixture?Bernard Ingham
There was an open line.Journalist
When people assembled in Peter Morrison’s room, number two, was that the same group as downstairs? Did that include Douglas Hurd? And did it include you and Charles, or …?Bernard Ingham
Mm. [ie, assents] Douglas Hurd came in and out, you know.Journalist
You and Charles were there?Bernard Ingham
Douglas Hurd wasn’t there at the moment the result came, but he came in later.Journalist
And the Prime Minister was there? She was there?Bernard Ingham
Yes, indeed. Absolutely! Yeah. [Laughter in the room, which Ingham joins]Peter Snow, BBC
The phone went and Peter Morrison was called to …Bernard Ingham
No, the phone didn’t go, because there was an open line.Peter Snow, BBC
Sorry, ok, yeah. And Peter Morrison was on the open line first …Bernard Ingham
He was, and then he presented the figures to the Prime Minister.Journalist
At what time exactly?Bernard Ingham
Sorry?Journalist
[Irish accent] At what time please? At what time?Bernard Ingham
Oh I don’t know what time. It was after half past seven.Peter Allen, ITN
What did she say?Bernard Ingham
No, no I am not going into any of that. I mean the …Journalist
The Foreign Secretary would have had the results relayed afterwards? He wasn’t there, he didn’t know the results.Other journalist
The Foreign Secretary didn’t know this.Bernard Ingham
I think he knew, yes. I think plenty of people …FCO official
I asked that John because I anticipated the question. I believe he heard it on the radio.Journalist
Were the phone calls purely to thank these people? Was there any question of seeking advice or …Bernard Ingham
No, no. She thanked them. But she, she came down and very quickly … it was after she had done that that she spoke to them, yeah.Journalist
Could you characterise please Bernard her reaction even if not her words?Bernard Ingham
Oh disappointed. She said …Peter Snow, BBC
Would you characterise … [talks over & interrupts] Sorry Bernard. Would you characterise the phone calls as consultation or were they simply sort of thank you and …Bernard Ingham
Thank you.Peter Allen, ITN
[indistinct question] … Bernard, sorry …Bernard Ingham
No, no hang on a minute. Let’s finish this one.Peter Snow, BBC
I want to be clear what she … I mean you are not going to tell me what she said to Kenneth Baker and Tebbit and so on …Bernard Ingham
I certainly shan’t do thatPeter Snow, BBC
Of course you won’t …Bernard Ingham
She simply spoke to the people to thank them for their efforts.Peter Snow, BBC
Could I be quite clear? There was no way that she asked their advice then?Bernard Ingham
No. She … she [6.00] had determined that she would stand and go for a second ballot.Peter Snow, BBC
Without consulting anyone, to be precise?Bernard Ingham
No, no. I mean, a lot of consultation had gone on, of course. Before.Peter Snow, BBC
But not since she heard the news?Bernard Ingham
No.Peter Snow, BBC
Quite.Journalist
Bernard, are you saying before the precise figures were known she had already made up her mind …Bernard Ingham
Well, the government is in a position where … SameJournalist
… to stand?Bernard Ingham
… indeed it always knows what it is going to do in certain circumstances, yeah.Journalist
These phones calls you said were before she made her statement. But in her statement she said she had a lot of telephoning to do.Bernard Ingham
Well, she certainly did. And she went back inside to do it. SameJournalist
So who did she speak to after …Bernard Ingham
Well, damn it, I’ve told you. Denis Thatcher, her … SameJournalist
So it was afterwards?Bernard Ingham
Yeah.Peter Allen, ITN
When you say that government always knows what it will do in certain circumstances, she had talked to her advisers, backers before …Bernard Ingham
She talked to Peter … she talked to Peter Morrison. Mm, mm [as if agreeing with Allen]Peter Allen, ITN
If this is the vote, what do we do?Bernard Ingham
We know … I mean, obviously, you have to take account of a range of possibilities and this is exactly what she did.Peter Snow, BBC
So there’s no problem …Bernard Ingham
There’s no problem at all.Peter Snow, BBC
Well, no no no no. Timing timing timing. I mean we were outside there. We heard the announcement of the results sort of 7.34ish, right [Ingham grunts assent], she appeared I mean two minutes later. She was very very quick out there.Bernard Ingham
Absolutely. We knew exactly what we were going to do.Peter Snow, BBC
Well, no indeed. But you are telling us she had one, two, three, four, five phone calls …?Bernard Ingham
No, I didn’t! [indignant] I said afterwards. [Other Journalists interject, some laughter]Peter Snow, BBC
Sorry, I am sorry, sorry. Good good good. After she made her statement. So …Bernard Ingham
The penny has dropped.Peter Snow, BBC
Got it. [More laughter from other Journalists] No, no, just be absolutely clear. So, call comes - Morrison open line, Morrison says ’thank you very much’, tells the Prime Minister, she almost immediately goes downstairs onto the steps?Bernard Ingham
We know exactly what the position was. We knew what we were going to do in various circumstances.Journalist
The family, Bernard. Were Denis, Mark and Carol all at Downing Street?Bernard Ingham
God, I’ve no idea where you were. I would guess that Denis and Mark were, yes. I don’t know where Carol was.Journalist
Could you say a bit more about the Prime Minister’s attitude? You just used one word, ’disappointed’.Bernard Ingham
[8.00] That’s all I’m prepared to say, yeah.Journalist
[Indistinct question - about nomination?] … by whom?Bernard Ingham
She hasn’t yet. She announced her intention to let her name go forward. I mean - I don’t actually know when nominations open.[Indistinct words]
Peter Allen, ITN
Could we ask you a general question, Bernard? I mean, clearly it is a pretty difficult situation in which to carry on, isn’t it?Bernard Ingham
The Prime Minister is going to take it to a second round. She is going to fight a second round, full stop. [8.34]Journalist
Does the Prime Minister - or is it too early to say - does she expect her nominees once again to be the Chancellor and the Foreign Secretary?Bernard Ingham
I don’t, I can’t - I mean, I can’t answer that at all. SameJournalist
But would that not be …?Bernard Ingham
Well, what did Douglas Hurd say when he came down? SameJournalist
Well, he would, I am just wondering about - well, he said he would support her again.Bernard Ingham
Well, he said he had also consulted the Chancellor, didn’t he? SameJournalist
He did, did he?Bernard Ingham
Mm. [assenting] I mean I …Same Journalist
You see, I didn’t … [other Journalists talk]Bernard Ingham
Didn’t he? Oh. Oh. Well, I think - I think they have talked at any rate.Journalist
But the PM has not talked to the Chancellor?Bernard Ingham
No, no no no.FCO official
[speaking quietly, perhaps directly to Ingham] Not to my knowledge.Bernard Ingham
Ah. Ah, right.Journalist
Excuse me, has this changed any plans?Bernard Ingham
Yes. We shall … I don’t think that there will be a press conference tomorrow.Journalists
No press conference?Bernard Ingham
No, no.Peter Allen, ITN
Will there be a briefing?Bernard Ingham
No. What she is going to do is that she is going to sign the document. Mm, mm. FemaleJournalist
[Question indistinct]Bernard Ingham
Sorry. And then she makes a statement to the House, yeah.Journalist
Bernard, just because it is operationally important, are you certain that there will be no press conference tomorrow, pretty certain?Bernard Ingham
Yes. SameJournalist
Right.Journalist
Can you tell us what time you are due back in Britain?Bernard Ingham
I should have thought we will be back about 1 o’clock, or thereabouts, yeah.Journalist
There is a rumour that she may be going back to UK tonight. Is that nonsense?Bernard Ingham
No, no absolutely not.Journalist
Bernard, did you have any indication that the vote might be this close, or did it come as a surprise the actual …Bernard Ingham
I think it came as a disappointment. Mmm.Journalist
Will she be arriving back at Northolt, or will there be an opportunity for photographers then?Bernard Ingham
Yes, I think we shall go back to Northolt. But there won’t normally be an opportunity there, no.[pause, no questions for a moment or two]
Journalist
Let’s be clear on her movements now. She has gone to Versailles, presumably missed the ballet, has she? Going to the dinner, is she?Bernard Ingham
Well she is bound to have missed - I don’t think she could have got there in time for the ballet now. She left about ten to, didn’t she? Ten to. I mean I think it - I mean she might be with a bit of luck arriving now, that might be in the middle of the ballet or in one of the intermissions, but err …Journalist
Her duties here tomorrow are to attend the conference in the morning and …Bernard Ingham
To attend the conference and sign the treaty, yes.Journalist
And what time would all that finish, roughly?Bernard Ingham
Ahhh … [voice - 11.15] Well, yeah - I would have said 11.30 or something like that.Journalist
[Scottish accent] Bernard, when was the decision taken to cancel the press conference?Bernard Ingham
Err, this evening. Ah, in order that she may get back and prepare for the statement. SameJournalist
On your advice, or did she …?Bernard Ingham
Well, I certainly didn’t dissent. SameJournalist
But you would have liked to have been available to us, you must have been disappointed yourself?Bernard Ingham
I am deeply disappointed never to be available to yourselves, yes. [Laughter from Journalists] I mean, my first duty in this life is to look after you. Even though you don’t look after me. [General laughter, Ingham joining.]Peter Allen, ITN
Before the evening disintegrates, could we ask about Douglas Hurd?Bernard Ingham
What do you mean "if the evening disintegrates"? [Laughter from Journalists.] You mean your evening?Peter Allen, ITN
I see hysteria settling in in Downing Street.Bernard Ingham
Well, that’s pure invention on your part. But that won’t be the first time. [Laughter from Journalists]Peter Allen, ITN
I thought you only assaulted the BBC, Bernard. [tape at 12.00] I didn’t know you went for us as well. [Laughter, Allen joining.] Can I ask what the Foreign Secretary is doing tomorrow?FCO official
Tomorrow? Well, he will be going - I don’t know his diary for tomorrow Peter, actually. He will be going back, um. Just trying to recall. I honestly don’t know.Journalist
Isn’t he seeing the Portugese tomorrow?FCO official
Oh, I see. I thought you meant after he got back. No, no. Tomorrow morning he has got a bilateral with the Portugese, I think it is about 9 o’clock or 9.30, and then he will be in the plenary for the signing and then he will go straight back to the airport with the Prime Minister.Journalist
Any breakfast meetings?FCO official
No.Bernard Ingham
[Speaking quietly, perhaps to FCO official] We don’t go in for that information if we can …Journalist
Very briefly, do you know what time she is due back tonight, from Versailles?Bernard Ingham
Well, we will be very lucky if she can back before midnight.Journalist
Are we going to get any more from you or her tonight?Bernard Ingham
Well, I don’t know. What do you think? [General laughter]Journalist
Could I …Bernard Ingham
Stop it! [More general laughter]Journalist
Could I just confirm that the Foreign Secretary did speak to the Chancellor?Bernard Ingham
I think he did, yeah.FCO official
[Quietly] I don’t know, I’m sorry. [13.16]Journalist
Does the Prime Minister have any intention of speaking to Mr Heseltine to congratulate him on his result? [Laughter]Bernard Ingham
[Pause, probably for effect]. No. [Laughter] You are being very provocative. I am being very restrained. [tape at 13.34]Journalist
Could I just ask again whether you had any indication throughout the day that the result might be this close. You say that it came as a disappointment, but was there any indication from the party managers during the day that it may be this close?Bernard Ingham
No. No, I stick with the word disappointed. The Prime Minister said that and I can’t go beyond that. [Pause] Ok, you have got lots to write.Journalist
What time would you like to see us?Bernard Ingham
Well, I wouldn’t like to see you at all, actually [laughter], but if I have to, I think the earliest we ought to, that makes sense is about 12.30, yep.Journalist
Here?Bernard Ingham
Well, here, yeah yeah.Journalist
Thank you very much.[tape at 14.13]
Second briefing - beginning about 1.10am local time
Bernard Ingham
Are you ready? Well, the Prime Minister has just returned with the Foreign Secretary, from this great event at Versailles, where she sat between, I think at dinner, Mr Martens of Belgium and the President of Bulgaria. [some laughter] She sat next to Mr Gonzalez at the ballet, which she actually managed to get to in time. And they had soup, lobster, chicken foie gras, cheese nougat glacé, Montrachet 85, Churchâteau Margaux 78 and champagne 83. How’s that? [Laughter]Journalist
[inaudible question - who pays?]Bernard Ingham
No, the French pay for all. [tape at 15.00] Um, and she has returned. She is having a drink now with … [pause, some laughter]. Well, hang on a minute - I mean, this barracking I get here - with the Foreign Secretary [groans from journalists, ’boo’, then laughter] Have you lot been to Versailles too? [laughter; inaudible remark] Eh? Ah, well, there you are. Well, that’s it. And she’s now turning to the debate of no confidence, I mean, she will have to do a statement tomorrow afternoon which she wants to return for early, to prepare, and then there is the debate of no confidence looming and therefore she is turning her mind to the preparation of that speech.Journalist
[question inaudible]Bernard Ingham
Well, I mean, she is going to sign the, er - slightly earlier than she had intended because she is going to make a statementJournalists
[Questions unclear]Bernard Ingham
No I can’t. We will have to do it tomorrow. We haven’t yet finalised the detail, but we will. I mean as soon as we can, we will give it to you.Journalist
You said earlier that [inaudible]Journalist
Bernard, has she said - has she had any more telephone calls?Bernard Ingham
No. She has come straight back and she is straight into planning the speech for the censure debate.Journalist
You said earlier that she had had a lot of consultations before the decision tonight? Could you tell us who she consulted?Bernard Ingham
No, I can’t, no. But I mean the important point is that we prepare for every eventuality before it occurs. It is a sign of good government.Journalist
Presumably that was party officials though rather than, uh, Private Office? She would have spoken to people like Kenneth Baker?Bernard Ingham
Oh, well I am talking about politicians, you know, members of the government [last words inaudible]Journalist
[Question inaudible]Bernard Ingham
I am not aware of that, no.Journalist
Bernard, do you think she will take a greater part in this …Bernard Ingham
Where are you?Other Journalist
I’m at the backBernard Ingham
Ah, sorry.Journalist
Bernard, do you think she will take a greater part campaigning in the second ballot than she did in the first, and make it more of a personal campaign?Bernard Ingham
I have no idea. I mean this is a matter for the party, not for me. I don’t know how they will deal with that. All that I can - I mean I am simply making myself available as a matter of convenience to say that she is quite clearly determined to fight [tape at 18.00] as she indicated earlier.Journalist
Are you in a position to say, Bernard, whether the consultations she had beforehand were on whether she should fight in the event of a second ballot, or step down, or simply how to fight on?Bernard Ingham
No. She promised people - she promised the people that she was working with, and who were working for her, that she would go to a second ballot, and that was it. And she is fulfilling her promise.Journalist
So it was never, should I - she did not consult on that?Bernard Ingham
No.Journalist
Are you in a position to say yet whether or who her nominees in the second ballot will be?Bernard Ingham
No, I’m not. No.Journalist
Can you - hello? - can you tell us if Mr Hurd is definitely not going to stand?Bernard Ingham
Mr Hurd gave the Prime Minister has full support, so I understand has the Chancellor.Journalist
Well, the Chancellor has declared he will not stand. [19.00]Bernard Ingham
Well, I’m sorry, I have spoken to them, bearing in mind that you are up to no good. I have spoken to the Foreign Secretary and the Foreign Secretary indicated to me that he had indeed declared his full support for the Prime Minister.Journalist
That’s a different thing.Bernard Ingham
No, well …Journalist
That’s a holding card.Bernard Ingham
No, I don’t believe it, but never mind.Journalist
[inaudible till microphone reaches him] … he has not said - Mr Hurd has not said that he will not …Bernard Ingham
He has declared his full support for the Prime Minister.Journalist
But he has not said that he will not.Bernard Ingham
He declared his full support.Journalist
As I recall, the nominations for the first ballot came almost at once, didn’t they? We were told immediately that Mr Hurd and Mr Major would be nominating her. Why the delay this time?Bernard Ingham
Well, we are in Paris, it is late at night, they have been to the ballet, they have been to Versailles. What do you want, blood? [tape at 20.00] [Laughter]Same Journalist
You are sure that those will be her nominees?Bernard Ingham
I don’t know who will be her nominees. What she has done is, she has declared her intention to fight the second round, and as I understand the Foreign Secretary and the Chancellor have declared their full support.Same Journalist
When do you expect to know though?Bernard Ingham
I don’t know.Same Journalist
Sorry to pursue this, but it is very important.Bernard Ingham
Well, it may well be to you, it isn’t to me.Same Journalist
Well, no, but it will be important to the MPs won’t it? These are the two most substantial figures in the party after herself.Bernard Ingham
What is important to the MPs is that they know that she is going to stand. [Inaudible question] Well, all right.Peter Allen, ITN
Bernard, you said she had contingency plans for any result which actually occurred. I just wondered - was a bare majority always going to be enough for her to say “yes, I will carry on?”Bernard Ingham
Yeah. You win by the rules. That is what she said before she started, before somebody else started. [21.00]Journalist
If for example things should go awry, would you write a history of what has occurred eleven years.Bernard Ingham
That is a totally hypothetical question and we do not allow such hypothetical questions on my, um …Same Journalist
But would it be - would it not be full of wit and humour?Bernard Ingham
Wit and humour - I am full of wit and humour.Same Journalist
Exactly. That is why I asked the question. I mean, we would love to read what you had to write about the last eleven years. [Laughter]Bernard Ingham
You encourage me. [Loud laughter]Same Journalist
Indeed, indeed. [Laughter]Bernard Ingham
Will you buy it? [Laughter, Ingham joining]Same Journalist
Probably.Bernard Ingham
Well, there you are. Yeah, at least we got one. [Laughter]Journalist
For the sake of saving what was a good headline, did she actually get there in time for the start of the ballet.Bernard Ingham
Well, that was my understanding, yeah. Yeah.Same Journalist
She wasn’t late at all? [tape at 22.00]Bernard Ingham
Not late for the ball, dear boy, no. [Laughter, inaudible words also] Ruined it, but never mind. [Pause] Well, you’ve all enjoyed yourselves, so have I. Is that all right? [Inaudible words] Tomorrow is tomorrow. I mean …Journalist
Will there be another briefing tomorrow?Bernard Ingham
I would hope not. I think I work too hard actually and …Journalist
Has the Prime Minister said anything more about the result?Bernard Ingham
No, no.Journalist
… to her companions, you know, or anybody else?Bernard Ingham
Not that I’m aware of.Journalist
Is she happy tonight?Bernard Ingham
She is disappointed.Journalist
No more?Bernard Ingham
Nope. [22.48]Journalist
No less?Bernard Ingham
Nope.Journalist
[Inaudible then mic arrives] Did any of her counterparts at the dinner say anything to her?Bernard Ingham
I don’t know. I didn’t ask, quite frankly. I mean, I think that is a matter for them.Female Journalist
[Words inaudible; given the mic] … I thought I didn’t need it. [Laughter]Bernard Ingham
You don’t.Same Journalist
… Not at this time of night. [Laughter] Even though you are saying the Prime Minister wants to get back to London to prepare for her …Bernard Ingham
Well, she has a statement to make.Same Journalist
Yes, of course. But there was the suggestion that there would be a press conference …Bernard Ingham
Ah no, we are abandoning it. Quite … quite bluntly, I am abandoning it.Same Journalist
Why?Bernard Ingham
Because I don’t think she should do it. She should go back and look after the House.Same Journalist
But did Mrs. Thatcher - as you’ve made clear and she herself made clear this evening - wants to come out fighting [sic]?Bernard Ingham
Well, what makes you think she won’t?Same Journalist
The press conference …Bernard Ingham
Oh, for heaven’s sake. We don’t fight you lot. No. I mean, I do that. [Loud laughter] [tape at 24.00]Journalist
What are the Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary discussing? Are they talking about the …Bernard Ingham
No, they are talking about the speech for the debate.Same Journalist
On Thursday?Bernard Ingham
Yeah.Same Journalist
And tomorrow’s statement?Bernard Ingham
No, not really. I mean I think tomorrow’s statement is much more straightforward. I mean, you know, that is more or less written now, bearing in mind the events.Same Journalist
Kinnock presumably will open for Labour, she will speak for the Government.Bernard Ingham
Yeah.Same Journalist
Will she wind up?Bernard Ingham
I doubt it, but I can’t tell you who will wind up at this stage.Journalist
It is already half past one, or getting on for half past one local time, twenty past one. How late do you expect her to be up?Bernard Ingham
Oh, not much longer now.Journalist
The debate on no confidence will be Thursday?Bernard Ingham
I think so, mm. Although has it been announced in London? What I’m not clear about. I think it is. [tape at 25.00]Journalist
[Question inaudible] Does that debate …Bernard Ingham
No. For heaven’s sake, when you’ve done eleven and a half years, I mean you are a pretty seasoned campaigner. Battle-hardened I think is the word. You know.Journalist
[Question inaudible; some laughter]Bernard Ingham
That was the last question on my mind, if I may say so. [General laughter, Ingham joining] Ok. You have had enough, go on.Journalist
Nothing more for tomorrow …Bernard Ingham
No, I mean the events will … [tape ends]