Interviewer
Prime Minister, you were last here at the end of September, when you saw Mr. Gorbachev. A lot has happened since then, particularly in Europe. Do you feel in any way that President Gorbachev 's grip on power is loosening, particularly in view of his domestic problems, the economy and also the fact that today in the Russian Federation Parliament a Bill was passed which seems to say that Russian law will take supremacy over Soviet law? Doesn't this indicate a man who is in more trouble than last time you met?
Prime Minister
I think it is a Mikhail Gorbachevman who has embarked upon the most exciting, biggest change that Europe has seen this half-century; that you could not expect those changes to come about without a certain number of problems; that he is man enough to ride those problems and to come through successfully; that that will require a refining and making clear the separation of powers and duties between the Central State and the separate Republics and I understand that the Federal Council will meet fairly soon to tackle these problems. [end p1]
I think he has the whole problem of trying to persuade people who have always relied on instructions as to what to do, that in future they must rely on their own initiative and work harder. That is very difficult for them, you know. They have had the security of being told to what to do but they have not had the prosperity or the liberty.
Now they are going to exchange the security at a lower standard of living for the freedom and the responsibility which comes with it, but they want some training. If they have got to do these things, they have got to know how to do them.
So, yes, of course, he has got a great sheaf of problems. I think he will solve them and he will solve them in the easy consultative way which showed at the press conference, the open way, the open discussion, which was unheard of in the Soviet Union five years ago.
So, yes, he is a big enough man to rise to the opportunities and not be overcome by the difficulties.
Interviewer
Yes, he is probably a big enough man and he has certainly got the determination to want to turn this country around, but what worries perhaps many observers here is that out on the streets, patience is running out. I am sure that President Gorbachev feels that. Do you think that there is a danger that what happens out there may determine ultimately what happens in the Kremlin and be not quite what President Gorbachev wants? [end p2]
Prime Minister
I think what they are trying to do is to say to people in a free society you do not look to Government for your standard of living. Government does not produce goods or any commercial services. People have to produce them. That is a big change-over. When it changes over, then you really will have to put in more effort and they don't know how to do it so, yes, there are problems and there is the problem of agriculture. Something like 40 per cent of the agriculture they produce never gets to the market because it is not properly stored and it is not moved in time. Now that is soluble.
But please, may I say this to you? President Gorbachev spent nearly half an hour at the Press Conference explaining his views, then turned and said to the Press: “Look! What we are doing is extremely exciting, one of the biggest things that has ever been tackled or ever achieved! Please won't you put that across instead of always trying to harp on the difficulties? Why won't you see the opportunities because you are not helping by constantly creating an opinion that maybe the difficulties are overwhelming? Why don't you start: the opportunities are overwhelming, how can we see that everyone rises to them?”
Interviewer
But Prime Minister, if you were in Mr. Gorbachev 's shoes and you had to introduce a market economy, given all the problems this country has, would you start by saying the price of bread will go up three times when bread is the bottom line for most people here? If they have bread in the shops they are not going to complain quite [end p3] so much. Don't you think he handled it badly?
Prime Minister
I am not necessarily here to second-guess what he does. You know full well that the price of bread is going up, but because it is such a staple commodity the wages are going up by the same amount as the price of bread. They feel that the price of bread has been far too low—it has been below its cost of production—and therefore it is wasted, really wasted and people are fed up with the waste so they are putting up the price of bread. Certainly, the wages are going up by the same amount, but they feel that less bread will be wasted at the higher price and that all of the increase in wages will not necessarily go on bread, possibly on other things, but to them it is a way of getting rid of waste. But you did not say that they were compensating through wages so you see, you gave only part of the story.
Interviewer
That is not a very large compensation, though.
Prime Minister
But it is not for us to second-guess what they are doing. That would be quite wrong. It is for us to help them with training and know-how to get through and not to go out there creating the idea that the difficulties are so great that they can't get through. It is to our advantage that the Soviet Union comes through to a free society and free economy. [end p4]
Do you know, I remember years ago when we suggested that we have an independent television— “Oh no, you can't do that!” but we have got it, haven't we?
Interviewer
Another one of the problems that President Gorbachev has to tackle is the whole Baltic issue and I know that you have spoken about, that but can I quote something that you said in your speech tonight which was something that you quoted from President Gorbachev: “We are building an open, democratic and free society which has learnt the lessons of the past!”
Do you think that is actually something that can be reconciled with the present Kremlin policy on Lithuania and the economic blockade? Is that really humane, democratic socialism?
Prime Minister
The present Kremlin policy is that the Baltic States are entitled to self-determination. We think the Baltic States are entitled to self-determination. The Baltic States think they are entitled to self-determination.
Interviewer
Sounds like there is a problem!
Prime Minister
No, there is no difficulty on the principle but often between the principle and the reality there are a great deal of [end p5] practicalities—how do you get talks started in a way which saves everyone's face and when do you get those talks started? There are an enormous number of things to talk about and to overcome, but there is no difference on the point of principle—it is a practicality of how to get those talks started.
Interviewer
So you are not unhappy with President Gorbachev 's policy on the Baltic States?
Prime Minister
I believe that his policy is such that the Baltic States are entitled to self-determination and that eventually they will get talks started to bring that about.
Interviewer
Going to the question of German membership of NATO, it does seem that everyone is saying they want a solution. Again, it is rather like the Baltics, everyone is saying they want a solution, it just depends on how you get there, but did you feel that there was a softening of the Soviet attitude to NATO membership of Germany during this particular visit, during your talks today?
Prime Minister
I would not necessarily describe it as a softening because I think they always knew that the unification of Germany, by the way which they are doing it—article 23—inevitably meant that Germany [end p6] would be in NATO because East Germany is being absorbed into West Germany. West Germany has been a member of NATO for a very long time and NATO, of course, has many of her forces in the Federal Republic of Germany, so I think they always knew that was a possibility and a probability.
I think, like many other people, they are a little apprehensive about German unification. That is not surprising because what happened fifty years ago is within the living memory of so many people and particularly in the Soviet Union, where they lost in that war 27 million people and where Hitler came and invaded the Soviet Union and so their apprehensions are of a particularly high quality. So they are looking for reassurance.
I don't think it undermines their security for a unified Germany to be a member of NATO and it adds to their security for American forces still to be stationed in Germany. It is a reassurance for us all that American forces will continue to be there. They still need some extra reassurance and that is what we are trying to find to give them, to persuade them that this is not contrary to the security of Europe and it is significant in itself that the United States is trying to find it, we are trying to find it, NATO is working hard at it. It is significant in itself that really we are trying to find a way to reassure them—and I am sure we shall.
Interviewer
You are confident? [end p7]
Prime Minister
Yes.
Interviewer
Finally, Prime Minister, you have got some problems at home, I am sure you would admit; President Gorbachev has got more than enough on his plate here. Would you consider a job swap for six months and who do you think would have the worst job?
Prime Minister
Well, I have been at it for eleven years and therefore I know that one can get through if you stick to it and that, I think, is what Mikhail Gorbachevhe will do. But you know, if ever you tackle and achieve anything really worthwhile in life, you are going to come up against some problems and success consists in overcoming them. That, I believe is what he will do.
We have overcome quite a number of ours so we have got some new ones to overcome. Every time you get to one peak, you will find another one ahead of you and you will go on and scale it.
So I just hope we have been able to help a little. He came to Britain many years ago. We were the first non-Communist country he visited; we got on very well because he was a quite different person from the Soviet Union in the way he discussed, argued, thought, from any other and the judgement one made then has been absolutely correct and I wish him well in this great adventure and the great endeavours on which he has embarked. [end p8]
Interviewer
You will see him again here next year, will you, Prime Minister?
Prime Minister
I hope so—or elsewhere.