Speeches, etc.

Margaret Thatcher

TV Interview for the BBC with Primet County Primary School (the environment)

Document type: Speeches, interviews, etc.
Venue: No.10 Downing Street
Source: Thatcher Archive: COI transcript
Editorial comments:

1030-1130. The interview was made for a BBC Environmental Schools programme. Primet County Primary school had been nominated "Greenpeace School for Britain" and as such networked with nine other countries, meeting in conference in Seattle and Moscow (information kindly supplied in 2022 by the class teacher, Stephanie Smith). The transcript ends with an adult interviewing MT, probably the producer, Peter Evans.

Briefing for the interview can be read here.

Importance ranking: Minor
Word count: 3149
Themes: Autobiographical comments, Environment, Primary education

(Note: This was a transcriber's nightmare! Re-takes and restarts abounded—plus the children's Lancashire accent! However, I have tried to produce what appear to be the final questions, answers and comments. James Lee)

Carly

We are the Primet Environmental Action Squad, otherwise known as the PEAS and Andrew is going to ask you a question now:

Andrew

We are doing a topic on water pollution. We have been working at Colne Water. There have been four pollution incidents in Colne Water this year. One of our PEAS members was running down the bank of Colne Water when [end p1] he spotted what looked like oil floating on the water. The next day, it was covered in the local newspaper and the PEAS went down to investigate and took this sample.

Prime Minister

That does look like oil! That was very observant of you, wasn't it? And you went to fetch someone to investigate and took this sample. That means that you have got something either coming out of a factory …

Andrew

Actually it was …   . a factory and it all came out of the outlet pipe.

Prime Minister

And it shouldn't, should it? There should have been something to trap it and it should not have got into the river.

I think you know, because you have been studying this, that last year we set up a new authority, the National Rivers Authority, so that they can look after the state of the rivers and they can report pollution and they can say to the factories: “Look! You cannot put more than a certain amount of chemical in and if you do, it must be treated before it goes in so that it is harmless!” [end p2]

So for the first time, we have got the National Rivers Authority and they can both take action on the factories and see that the pollution does not come in; then someone will be available to clear an oil slick because you have to go and get detergents sprayed on and disperse it.

But that was very good of you to see it because the more that people like the PEAS Group see it, the quicker we can deal with it and stop it from fouling birds, for example. That would have been very bad had birds got into that oil slick. It would have made it very difficult for them to fly and then we should have had to have cleaned them up. But that is the job of the National Rivers Authority, to stop pollution, and the more people who help them to report what is going on, the better.

Andrew

When the clean-up operation had finished, we went back down to look at the river and we took this sample. The clean-up operation men had done a very good job in cleaning the river and we are pleased with it. [end p3]

Prime Minister

That is very good, Andrew. Just look! It is absolutely clear; nothing is floating in it and clear as crystal. So you all did a very good job that day, including the people who cleaned up that terrible mess, so I think you can congratulate yourselves. Shall we put that one back? Can you manage it?

Andrew

Yes!

Prime Minister

Good!

Nicola

But a week later, one of our PEAS members was walking near the same stretch of water where the incident had happened and he saw something like blood in the water so he went and took a sample and this is the sample he took. Would you like to sniff it?

Prime Minister

Goodness me! Let us set it against something white! Do you think you could hold that up so that I can have a look at it? And also there is a deposit—it has gone down to the bottom; that might be some of the silt from the river. [end p4]

Now you saw that and did you manage to take it to someone to analyse what was in it or did another school analyse it?

Nicola

No.

Prime Minister

So you don't know what it is and you don't know where the blood came from, whether it was an animal or whether it was human blood, but you reported it!

Nicola

We reported it to the NRA.

Prime Minister

You reported it and then they did an analysis—and I am sure they were very grateful to you for reporting it, weren't they because that enables them to do something about it and see just exactly where it comes from. It helps them very much if everyone reports these things because first, they might need it as evidence and secondly, they can clean it up fast.

That is very good! You have been doing very important work, haven't you? You have been enjoying it? [end p5]

Nicola

Yes.

Prime Minister

So you reported it but we don't quite know yet where that came from and they are trying to find out. Now, [illegible words] so that is very good.

Nicola

We want to know how your Government is going to stop more incidents happening in Colne Water.

Prime Minister

The National Rivers Authority makes certain rules about what can and cannot be put into the rivers and usually, if they put in something from factories that would pollute it, they would have to treat that before it went into the river so it was harmless when it was in the river. They will agree certain things with each factory and then they will have people to go round testing the waters and monitoring to see whether that factory is observing the rules.

Most factories will wish to observe the rules because it would get them a bad name if they didn't and in any case, the people who work there are just as keen to have clean rivers as you are, so it is not a question of [end p6] stopping the chemical factories—we have to have that because it produces many things that we need—it is a question of getting the production in a way that is safe and not having them just swilling away whatever is left into the river. Those days are gone—we must have our rivers clean.

So that is how they will work. They will make agreements and they will monitor to see that the factories are observing those agreements and this system only started last year so it has got some time to work but I am sure that it will work well.

Nicola

Do you know the rules that they have made?

Prime Minister

Well, I do know some of the rules that they have made, yes, because we had to agree both with things from factories and also discharges of sewage in a treated condition into the rivers. So we do know, and they took over some of the rules from the previous Water Authorities but some of the Water Authorities were already putting into the rivers some of the things that needed controlling, so it is very much better to have this new Rivers Authority which is there to see that the rules are observed. [end p7]

Daniel

I would like to tell you a bit about my report which is in front of you.

Prime Minister

Is it this top one?

Daniel

Yes!

Prime Minister

“River hit by oil pollution!” Yes?

Daniel

We wrote this report because we were worried about pollution in Colne Water. We interviewed twenty-three people who live near Colne Water to find out what they thought about pollution in their area. Most people thought it was the factories' fault that it was polluted; they thought the factories who were near Colne Water should move or be fined more for polluting the water.

What do you think should be done about factories polluting the water? [end p8]

Prime Minister

I think we have already said that we have got a new Rivers Authority and that has to have an agreement with factories that they will observe the rules, and that they cannot pour things into the water which would pollute it and harm it.

We have a reasonable record in this country for clean rivers. In England and Wales, 90 per cent of our rivers are “clean” or “fair” . That is a rather better record than any other country in Europe, but even just being “fair” isn't good enough—we want them to be better and, of course, the 10 per cent—and I think you have some problems in your area—have got to get much better.

I imagine that you know the river from its spring right to the sea and when it first comes out it is a beautiful clear spring water isn't it? Then, it goes further down into the Calder and it gets some pollution in it. So the pollution will be looked after by the National Rivers Authority.

I do think other people have a duty too. I noticed from one of your reports that a lot of things had been dumped in that river; there were old polythene bags, there were bits of wood, there were all sorts of bits of old furniture, rubber tyres, a lot of things—people had just dumped them into the river. Now, they really must stop! We cannot have this, old tin cans, all sorts of [end p9] crisp packets! People have a duty, too, to keep their rivers clean, not to throw those things in, but to wrap them up and take them home or go to one of the proper local authority dumps which are there for that purpose. So the factories have a duty and people have a duty to keep their rivers clean.

Question

How do you feel about only one NRA man in one big area because if there was a spillage in Nelson and then a spillage in Preston, he cannot be in two places at once, can be?

Prime Minister

First, the Rivers Authority was only started last year so I expect that they are building up their staff and will see just exactly how many they need to carry out their duties. Of course, if everything happened at once we should be in difficulty, but that is true with policing anywhere and we should have to call on other people in order to help. I am sure that some of the chemical factories would know how to deal with it and would be able to help and you have quite a lot in your area. [end p10]

But soon, the National Rivers Authority will know how many staff they need to carry out their duties, not only to deal with the spillage but to deal with steady monitoring to see that the river is kept clean, but they are fairly new, so give them a chance!

Scott

Could we please now change the subject to Blackpool and Gemma 's question, please?

Prime Minister

Yes, of course! Gemma?

Gemma

Do you know about Blackpool and the sewage that has been polluting the water so that tourists cannot swim or paddle safely?

Prime Minister

I do know about Blackpool. I used to go and spend some of my holidays there years ago and Blackpool is one of the places where the sewage went on a very long outfall right out a long way because it was thought at one time that the best way to clean the sewage is to subject it to sea water—sea water purifies many things. But we [end p11] think now that although that may be so, it is far better not to have sewage pouring right out into the sea but to have it treated on land and we have set aside quite a large sum of money to see that we stop all sewage outfalls and that we do it on land and Blackpool is one of those places.

It means that the next thing we shall have to do is to get planning permission to have a sewage treatment plant on land and then we can do it properly, as in other places. That is one of the things we have agreed to do over a period of years. It is going to cost quite a bit of money to the taxpayer and the people who pay for water but we think it should be done and so I hope in a few years time that will be cured.

Question

Where is the money coming from?

Prime Minister

The money comes really from two places: first, from the taxpayer and secondly, people have to pay for services—they have to pay for water and they pay for sewage—and that will come from the prices which they pay. [end p12]

Carly

We were so worried about the sewage outfall pipes when we heard it and in the newspapers that we did a survey on tourists in Blackpool. That is my report there!

Prime Minister

This is the other report?

Carly

Yes! We asked them if they knew the beach had failed the EEC test. It is one of the dirtiest beaches in the area. 70 per cent of people knew that the beach had failed the EEC test; 97 per cent of tourists agreed with us that the beach was disgusting.

If you were on Blackpool Council, what would you do about it?

Prime Minister

I think, when I went through this report, there were two things:

First, the sewage outfall that goes right out, which I said we are dealing with by having it all treated properly on land, but secondly, there were a lot of other things found on the beach that really are left there by [end p13] tourists and people who use it; all kinds of things found—people have a picnic and they leave the tins and some of the remains on the beach and that of course gets swept out to sea and then it comes in again.

For that, we really must rely on people not to do it or have people going to pick things up from the beach. In one beach where I go for a summer holiday in Cornwall, young people from the National Trust come to our beach—they are volunteers—and pick up any little bits of paper or cans that are left so that it is nice and tidy but it is better if people do not throw them down!

Until 1979, which is not really very long ago to some of us, we had not identified all of the beaches where we have problems. In 1979, we knew each one, whether it had a really bad problem or whether it was a nice clean beach. Three-quarters of the beaches are now clean and pass fully the European test. That leaves us with about one-quarter left still to do and Blackpool is one of them, where we have, again, a big of sum of money allocated from the taxpayer in order to clean up all of those beaches so that we hope that by the end of this century we shall have really all good clean rivers and all good clean beaches. But in the meantime, people themselves can help a lot by not throwing down things and by putting them in the big containers there for use or wrapping up the things and taking them home and disposing of them there. [end p14]

Carly

What would you do if you were on Blackpool Council?

Prime Minister

My guess is that Blackpool Council already have people going along the beach to do their level best to clean it up. Also, I think that they will put out quite a lot of bins to see that people the put refuse in there and then have them collected regularly.

Carly

If you went to Blackpool on holiday, would you swim in the sea?

Prime Minister

I don't like swimming in the sea; I never have liked swimming in it but I have paddled in it, but I am always a bit fearful—you never know what you might tread on or something, so I much prefer to swim in a swimming pool. But I do go to Blackpool quite often because we have quite a lot of our conferences there and quite a lot of our people do swim in the sea. [end p15]

Carly

Would you ever let your children swim in the sea?

Prime Minister

In Blackpool? I don't know. I would need to go and look at it and see. I don't think we have had any illness from swimming in the sea but certainly, if I thought there was any danger, I would not swim in it at all, but to paddle I think is a little bit different. [end p16]

INTERVIEW AT END OF RECORDING

Question

Very quickly, for viewers in the area where the children come from, can I ask you what you think of all this research and all the hard work they have put in?

Prime Minister

I am very pleased, first because they are conscious of the need to have clean rivers and they are conscious of their duty to keep it clean and conscious of the need to have clean beaches and that one of the problems is that people throw things into rivers and throw things down on beaches and we shall not get them all absolutely clean until people do not throw their litter down.

If you look here, look at the research they have done, for example on litter, it shows you that they have said that some comes from polythene bags, some comes from bottles, cans, crisp packets, all kinds of things which people have just thrown down, so it means they are going to grow up to be very good citizens and they are already in a position to know what to do. They already know [end p17] about the National Rivers Authority. This is really good. We really want our country to be very beautiful, as beautiful as it once was, and we do not want it to be made not nice merely because people are careless with what they do.

Also, I think they understand that if you are going to have higher-quality things, that you have to pay for them. If you have higher quality, then you have got to pay for someone, to pay their wages and salaries, to test and to keep the rivers clean and we understand that.

I think it is marvellous and I do congratulate them on the work they have done.

Question

As a result of the work and their findings, will you be able to do anything more to ensure that the river is kept clean and not polluted?

Prime Minister

(I think the PM misheard the question, which is repeated later. James Lee

Yes, indeed, because they know exactly who to go to report to, to get something done quickly. It is very important for example about oil slicks. If they are there too long they break up and it becomes much more difficult to get rid of them. [end p18]

Question

Will you be able to take a more personal interest in keeping the river clean though, as a result of this?

Prime Minister

I have always taken an interest in it because I am answering questions Tuesdays and Thursday and I know just exactly usually how the rivers are going because I have to have all the latest information and that is why one knows that 90 per cent of our rivers are classified as “good” or “fair” , which is a higher proportion than any other country in Europe because the highest there is 75 per cent, so that is good.

Also, we are the only country, I think, in Europe which has a programme, a steady programme, to clean up all our beaches so that it is all completed within a period. It is an enormous amount of money—something like over £26 billion—we are spending altogether on getting these things done. We are doing it because we think it is important—it is important for health and it is important for appearance—and I am sure people will back us in doing that.

We must be conscious of the environment in which we live and we should not have litter if people did not throw it down, so these people are not going to throw any down, they are much more likely to pick it up. [end p19]

Nicola

On behalf of the PEAS, we all would like to say “Thank you” for your time.

Prime Minister

Thank you very much, Nicola, and thank you for all the hard work you have put into it and I am very pleased you are doing so well.