Speeches, etc.

Margaret Thatcher

Radio Interview for IRN (Kuala Lumpur Commonwealth Summit)

Document type: Speeches, interviews, etc.
Venue: Commonwealth Conference Centre, Kuala Lumpur
Source: Thatcher Archive: COI transcript
Journalist: Peter Murphy, IRN
Editorial comments: Between 0900 and lunch.
Importance ranking: Major
Word count: 1500
Themes: Commonwealth (general), Commonwealth (South Africa), Trade, Foreign policy (Africa), Foreign policy (Asia), Foreign policy (development, aid, etc), Race, immigration, nationality

Interviewer

Prime Minister, yesterday you said that you were astounded that Canada and Australia should demand an explanation for your statement on South Africa but are you really surprised by their reaction?

Prime Minister

Yes I most certainly am, there are some kind of double standards, they expect to be able to express their views, make very good use of the press to do so, but when I actually made clear that our views are set out properly in writing they object. That is nonsense.

The communique which they issued was disagreed on the face of it, that is to say in four places it said: “We, with the exception of Britain” , or “Britain takes a different view” , but did not set out Britain's view. That anyone in the Western world should object to one having the freedom to set out one's view, for it was said in the main document that we disagreed, is to me utterly appalling and I said so in the meeting. And no-one other than Mr Hawke and Mr Mulroney objected. [end p1]

Interviewer

But your views against sanctions are well known, Why bother issuing a separate statement? Does it not look like sour grapes?

Prime Minister

Absolute nonsense, it gives us the fundamental basis on why we are against sanctions. I set it out when I spoke, I did not give you a written copy of my speech and I thought it absolutely time that we set out our views clearly.

And of course I do note that those who believe in sanctions could of course put them on themselves if they wished. They do not.

Interviewer

You are suggesting they do not?

Prime Minister

No, I am pointing out that they do not.

Interviewer

Mr Mugabe says that your statement torpedoes that of the Commonwealth and will send a message to South Africa that Britain supports apartheid? [end p2]

Prime Minister

That is just the kind of thing which I issued a statement against because I know full well that our views will be thoroughly and totally, wilfully misrepresented. They know full well that I am just as much against apartheid as they are. They know full well that we take the view that sanctions are punitive and operate on the poorest. They also know full well that every opinion poll that is done with black South Africans when they put the question: “Are you in favour of sanctions if they cause unemployment?” , Two out of every three says: “No.”

So black South African opinion is on my side. They know that sanctions are punitive on those people and you should have heard what Archbishop Tutu said about sanctions when it was proposed they be put on in Panama: “No, they will hurt the poorest” .

It is absolutely wrong to misrepresent our view. That is why Robert Mugabehe has given me, unbeknown to me, the very reason for setting out our view in writing. I am very grateful to you to know, I did not know what he had said, he had not expressed any such view to me after the meeting, after our statement.

Oh no, no, many people come up to me just as normal, they want aid, they want military training, they want influence exerted with some country or another. No, what they object to is that the document we issued was clear and effective.

Interviewer

Are you suggesting that some other leaders are being hypocritical in their attitude to sanctions? [end p3]

Prime Minister

No, I am just merely saying that not one single one has come up and complained to me, Mr Hawke and Mr Mulroney complained in the meeting, even though they all agreed the document which said Britain's view is different. They said that about four times but it did not set out Britain's view in that document so I filled the vacuum and set it out.

Interviewer

If I could quote Mr Mugabe again, he accused you of just protecting British interests and using the excuse of the effect it would have on poor blacks in South Africa?

Prime Minister

Absolute nonsense, he knows full well, and I quoted in my speech in the meeting the case which I have had just recently of a pineapple factory which cans pineapple, the farms grow it and it canned it and in America and in Canada people are not buying South African canned goods and so 1100 black South Africans, that is 1100 families, have been put out of a job. Well, maybe they are pleased, but I am not.

Interviewer

The next Commonwealth Conference has been arranged for Harare in two years time. Do you feel that in two years time your views on South Africa may have been proved correct? [end p4]

Prime Minister

Yes. South Africa is changing. They know South Africa is changing, they know they have not put on sanctions, except for mandatory sanctions, the United Nations and what we call gesture sanctions, they know South Africa is changing. It has not come about by comprehensive sanctions which I have fought off the whole time. As I said in my speech earlier, when there is a new government in South Africa and apartheid has gone, that government will have cause to thank one person in the Commonwealth that it inherits a strong economy and that person will be Great Britain.

Interviewer

Can I turn to the Conference generally, do you regard it as a success?

Prime Minister

Oh yes, I am used to this. Oh, Good Heavens you should hear some of the speeches, we get the ritual speeches every time: Britain colonised, she exploited all the people, etc, etc., and you just sit there calmly and take it. And then you see one after the other and they want military training or they want some help or another and we give it and we shall continue to give it.

Interviewer

Obviously the media and certain people have concentrated on South Africa. You of course dealt with a number of very important subjects. [end p5]

Prime Minister

Oh yes.

Interviewer

Which do you feel was the most important declaration that you will get at the end of this?

Prime Minister

I do not think you can single one out. Obviously the big debates are on the general change in world politics, the general change in East-West relations, which also you know affect Africa very much, it will affect Mozambique, it is affecting Angola, it give Namibia the chance of independence and I think perhaps there are not now so many armaments going into Ethiopia as there were although they are still going into Nicaragua. I think the big global changes are effective the world over as we talked about the Soviet Union and also about China, what happened there.

Then you have the big economic changes and the fascinating thing to me, having been here, having put forward my beliefs all the time about privatisation, about enterprise, about tax incentives, they are now one after another adopting them, recognising that they themselves cannot run industry. But that is my message, and as one pointed out this time, when they talk about the difference between the rich and poor countries I say to them: “Look, we all started poor, every single country, we all came out of trying to sweat a living from the soil and by hunting, we all came out of that, we were all poor. The countries that have got richer have been those [end p6] which have had a positive enterprise approach, enterprise and incentives, and have been prepared to pioneer and work extremely hard” .

Interviewer

Can I ask you about Hong Kong? Have you had the support you expected from the rest of the Commonwealth?

Prime Minister

We have yet, as you know, to have the communique on Hong Kong. I am pretty certain there will be something in on Hong Kong, it would be absolutely appalling for the Commonwealth if there were not and I cannot envisage that situation.

Interviewer

And will you also be dealing with the future of the Vietnamese boat people?

Prime Minister

I should expect there will be something on the future of the Vietnamese boat people. These are, you cannot believe in human rights and cannot believe in the Commonwealth as such without having something on both of those things.

Interviewer

Will there be forced repatriation? [end p7]

Prime Minister

Of illegal immigrants, most people in fact repatriate illegal immigrants as you know, of course they do. We have not had involuntary repatriation of Vietnamese boat people, it has been voluntary repatriation so far and people who are genuine refugees, political refugees, are treated as such right from the outset.

But really the fact is that Hong Kong cannot go on accepting Vietnamese boat people, she has got 55,000 there at the moment and those people who complain when we say that those who are not refugees simply must go back, if they did not like that, and do not forget most people do repatriation of illegal immigrants, then they should say: “Right, we will take so many away from Hong Kong ourselves” .