Interviewer
Prime Minister, from President Mugabe 's speech last night, it was clear that he remains deeply sceptical about South Africa's real intentions in the regions, and that is obviously the view of the leader of a Front-Line State. Is there any danger that you are misreading the signals from Pretoria?
Prime Minister
No, I do not think we are misreading them at all. There have been quite considerable changes in laws in the past few years. The prospects of black South Africans have advanced economically enormously. They are shareholders in some of the companies for which they work; things like the taxis have been handed over completely to black South Africans—they own them, they are doing very well. There are more black South Africans matriculating from school than there are white South Africans. There are a lot at university. There are a lot very successful in business. [end p1]
The irritating thing for them is with all that, it must be most frustrating and really bitterly insulting that they cannot take part in the government and we have this last step—to get rid of the other discriminatory legislation, some of which has gone—to make.
But you know, there is an atmosphere of feeling not only in this part of the world but in other parts too and between East-West that things should be solved by negotiations. The negotiations sometimes will be tough. There is a feeling that it ought to be the same, too, in the Middle East and I think this feeling is infecting everyone.
I think the newer generation of politicians in South Africa knows that it has to come about, is ready for it to come about, and is thinking diligently how to bring it about.
Interviewer
On this tour, you stressed what you have called “positive development” in the region ranging from Angola to Namibia. What kind of role do you see yourself playing from here on out?
Prime Minister
We have always played a very constructive role, because that is our way. The aid we have given has been constructive. Where as in Mozambique, they are fighting a brutal terrorist organisation [end p2] —Renamo, We have no responsibility for Mozambique, but they helped us to bring Southern Rhodesia to independence and from that time, we have always tried to help back and so when the President of Mozambique asked us if we would train some of their soldiers to tackle terrorism, yes, we do that. You saw an example yesterday, when President Chissano, President Mugabe and myself were there. British soldiers training Mozambican soldiers and also Zimbabwean soldiers, to go and tackle the terrorists in Mozambique. It is quite a remarkable thing. That is constructive.
We have always given quite heavy aid; aid where there are refugees; some aid to Malawi who receive the refugees and as a matter of fact also some aid to Chief M'Busa (phon) in South Africa because some of them go over the southern border into South Africa and we give aid for reconstruction. We give aid for them to rebuild their railway lines.
You have seen the aid that we have given in Zimbabwe and very effectively they are using it too.
We are always helpful and constructive diplomatically—our diplomatic skills are well known—and we have been active as a Permanent Member of the Security Council over things like Zimbabwe and over Iran-Iraq we were very active and we shall be active over the Middle East. [end p3]
So we do. We give positive aid in the form of financial help. We give training to those who are fighting terrorism, in the form of all the best traditions of the British Army, and they are marvellous! I frequently say—and you heard me say yesterday—British soldiers are in demand in thirty countries and are present in thirty countries in the world by request, to give advice or to give help.
So that is a pretty constructive approach.
Interviewer
Finally, Prime Minister, you are known as a persuasive politician. You did not manage to change President Mugabe's mind on sanctions, you repeated your line on it. Is that a setback and a disappointment because after all, it is the Front-Line States who have been pushing the case on this?
Prime Minister
Not a setback, not a disappointment.
I fought against sanctions at the Nassau Commonwealth Conference when other members of the Commonwealth were suggesting imposing them. I find it repugnant to sit around a conference table in the greatest possible luxury to decide, as a matter of policy, how many children and their families shall starve and live in poverty. I am amazed that other people do that. [end p4]
Here we are, we give aid to Ethiopia so that it shall not happen, and to try to do that to South Africa is, to me, utterly repugnant.
But I won the argument at Nassau and the others, if they wanted to put on sanctions, were free to do so. They did not!
We had it again in London the following year. We won the argument again and the others did not put on sanctions.
We had the argument again in Vancouver at the Commonwealth Conference. The others wanted to put on sanctions and again we won.
Things have moved since then. Namibia coming up to independence. South Africa have been occupying Namibia. It is coming to independence.
You could not have got the Cubans and the South Africans out of Angola except with a positive, constructive approach from South Africa.
Many of the worst laws in South Africa have gone, there are a lot more still to go, but they are moving in the right direction.
When things are going in that direction, you do not suddenly say: “Well, you are doing some of the right things, but we are really going to put on sanctions!” You would not get the result you wanted. They would go precisely the other way and I am far too optimistic for that and I think, to do President Mugabe justice— [end p5] because he and I get on very well indeed and I know he makes his speeches and I do not hesitate to put my speeches—he does hope that his view is wrong and he does hope that mine is right, and that is pretty generous isn't it?
Interviewer
When you are meeting these South African Ministers in London, basically you will be offering them incentives—more of the carrot and none of the stick—to encourage the pace of reform?
Prime Minister
Look! When South Africa has sorted out this problem, the opportunities for enormous strides in the economy are tremendous.
The South African economy is the best economy in the whole of Africa. The success of its economy is very important to all the Front-Line States, very important to the three million people—black South Africans—who go in from adjacent states to work there, to remit their earnings home.
It will be such a different world when you can forget—because you have solved—those terrible problems and can go on to building up an economy to give better education, better housing, better social services, better not only for the whole of southern African, but for the rest of Africa and for relations with the rest of the world. [end p6]
I think the message is clear that the defence of peace and the continuance of peace for which you must have a sound defence, is the most desirable thing of all because it is the basis from which you can go on to build up a good way of live in countries, each keeping their own particular conventions and customs, trading more with one another, learning more about one another and living a very much fuller life, and it is an enormous pleasure—encouragement—to me that after nearly ten years in government this feeling is now sweeping a large part of the world. Not all! There are still some problems in the Middle East. It is sweeping a large part of the world and I think that some of the examples that Britain has given and some of the problems we have been involved in solving have given a very good example to others who choose to tread the same path.
Interviewer
So you expect a constant stream of South African Ministers to come knocking on your door?
Prime Minister
I hope that quite a number of them will come and that we will discuss these matters. They know my way has always been the constructive way because in the end, this is what counts, and if help is required we are prepared to give it. We are not prepared [end p7] to dictate to anyone. We are prepared to use our powers of persuasion and any skills we may have to help to bring these things about, but in the meantime there is one lesson which should have been learned in South Africa by everyone: that forward progress has been made by the foreign companies which have been investing in South Africa. They have set a standard for others to follow, a standard of training black South Africans, of educating them, of giving them excellent housing, of giving them shares, of giving them responsibility so that when it comes to accepting political responsibility, they will be people of skill, of some use ... and of some experience in wielding responsibility, and that will be a very good thing.