Interviewer
You are meeting with President Bush. What is the advice you are giving President Bush before he heads into that meeting with President Gorbachev?
Prime Minister
I do not think I presume to give George Bushhim advice. I hope we will talk things over together and I think we will come to very similar conclusions.
I heard the President's speech on the eve of Thanksgiving and I think he spoke for us all.
Interviewer
What should he do when he goes to see Gorbachev in terms of assurances to the Soviet Union, assurances to the Western World? What kind of steps should he take? [end p1]
Prime Minister
I think there are enormous possibilities ahead, the sort of possibility we have been working for for years as one has wanted human rights to go right across from the Atlantic to the Pacific. That can only come about through a genuine democracy, more than one party.
I think our first objective is to get democracy in all the East European countries and across the Soviet Union. That is a terrific objective, really to set up differing political parties, to have genuine debate and to get the economic reforms that go with it. It is the most single worthwhile objective since the last War.
It is such a big change that it has to be carried out against a stable background. If you want really big changes in one direction, you must keep other things stable, which is why most of us say that the NATO and Warsaw Pact security arrangements must stay in place so that no-one fears for their security while those big changes are being brought about which could not have happened but for Mr. Gorbachev too.
Interviewer
Are you afraid that Gorbachev and Bush will decide the fate of Eastern and Western Europe? [end p2]
Prime Minister
No. President Bush always consults very closely and always keeps us very well informed of things which he has in mind. Indeed, the consultation process is working extremely well.
I do not think that they will just sit there without the rest of us and decide what shall be done. I think we share in the Western World the same objectives and I think we could not have brought those objectives about but for the advent of Mr. Gorbachev who has had tremendous courage and vision and has made these things possible, but they have not yet been achieved.
Interviewer
You have said twice now that it is Gorbachev who is responsible in large measure for the changes that we are seeing sweeping across Eastern Europe and even in the Soviet Union. The West is taking steps to aid Poland and Hungary and perhaps there will be even more steps than that.
So far, the United States and Great Britain and the West have not taken a major step toward the Soviet Union. Is it time for the West to reward Mikhail Gorbachev in some way, not for the completion of the reforms but for the enormous steps which you acknowledge he has already taken? [end p3]
Prime Minister
I think you have been giving the impression that the West has nothing to do with it. That is not right!
The West stands for fundamental human rights, freedom under a rule of law and liberty, which gives human dignity and a standard of living better than any the world has ever seen and we have never faltered in standing up for human rights, have always raised it with East European countries and with the Soviet Union. They have seen that their system really has brought their countries almost to economic collapse and it was really our loyalty and our assiduous putting forward of the things we believe in, together with the fact that we were never going to be intimidated by the Soviet Union - when they in fact put up SS20s we deployed Pershing and Cruise. We have always been strong in defence and they knew they could never break us so then at last they said their system is not producing the goods, nor the dignity, so it really has been because of the strength of the West and the loyalty to our beliefs and in going out and really preaching in the battle of ideas that freedom is the best way.
Interviewer
But is it time now for a reward? Having reaped the success of the Western policy, is it time to say to Mr. Gorbachev: “Here is something we can do to help you!” Economic - political? [end p4]
Prime Minister
I think we are trying to do a good deal to help Mikhail Gorbachevhim. We are having people over and showing them how a free society works, how the economic liberty works; we are offering management courses; we do trade, of course; we have many cultural exchanges. He is in - of course they are a big country - on all of the discussions about the future of the world, about the regional issues. We are all saying openly that we support the reforms that Mr. Gorbachev is bringing about. Please understand that when you start these big reforms, you get all the difficulties coming out first, because when you get freedom of speech the criticisms come out first and it takes longer to get the solid achievements, so again, we are warning it will take long but we are saying it is worthwhile, go on. But there is no point in giving them enormous new credits nor in giving Eastern Europe enormous new credits - some of them already have more debt than they can possibly repay.
Interviewer
How about inviting Mr. Gorbachev to talk with the Western leaders in a group perhaps in the context of the Economic Summit next year?
Prime Minister
He wrote a letter to the Economic Summit last time but obviously, he talks to each of us. We all go and talk and we are all from the Free World. [end p5]
The Economic Summit is a summit of nations which believe in a free enterprise economy. Now, the Soviet Union does not really know how to bring that about. They do not know what their costs are, they do not know what their prices are, they do not know what a market economy really is and it is going to take a long time to bring that about.
Interviewer
You spoke a moment ago about being strong in defence as one of the keystones of the Western policy toward the Soviet Union in recent years. One of the aspects of that defence policy has been to modernise, upgrade and essentially install some new short-range nuclear missiles in Europe.
In light of the changes that have taken place in Poland, Hungary - now Czechoslovakia, East Germany - is it possible for the West to deploy new missiles aimed at people like Walesa and the new leaders of East Germany, Poland and Hungary?
Prime Minister
I think you are trying to leap forward much too quickly. We do not know what will happen. We always have to defend liberty, always, always. Defence is the greatest deterrent to anyone from any unexpected direction who may attack you. [end p6]
We now have arms control talks, the conventional forces will be substantially reduced, the nuclear substantially reduced, the chemical one hopes will go to zero. The fewer forces you have, the more important it is that they be modernised, the more important it is that you have a nuclear element because that really is the biggest deterrent of all and this is why I say for the time being we must continue the NATO and Warsaw Pact arrangements.
We have agreed our NATO policy. None of us is at liberty to go away from that policy except by agreement with the rest and President Bush will be coming to talk to us in NATO after his talk to Mr. Gorbachev, but you must keep your defence sure always. You never know where an attack is going to come from and you must always be prepared. That is your greatest security, your greatest safety, and I expect the Soviet Union, too, to take that viewpoint.
Interviewer
Prime Minister, for more than ten years your name has been synonymous with steadfastness and the comments you have made this morning enlisted a kind of combative conservatism which many people feel in the light of the changes taking place in Eastern Europe is perhaps a bit outdated. This is a very difficult question for me to ask and I am going to ask it. I think you have to recognise it comes from an American perspective where American citizens see their leadership changing regularly every eight years, where sports figures, political figures, often are most revered when they leave at the height of their effectiveness. [end p7]
In light of the politics going on in Britain right now that we all observe, is it time for you to step off the stage at your moment of glory, at your moment before that politics overshadows the achievements you have been able to accomplish?
Prime Minister
No, I do not think so. I think the coming decade is going to be one of the most exciting we have seen.
Yes, we do have a different system from you. Yes, I am combative. I believe what I am doing. I believe that we are winning the battle of ideas and I believe if we had not fought it, you may have found that we would not have won it.
You know, for years the doctrine, as the George BushPresident said, was of containment. We were not expecting as soon as this to be able to get freedom into those countries. Yes, I believe in them. Yes, I fight for them. Yes, I shall go on fighting for them and when it comes up to the next election … I was asked the other day whether I would consider fighting a fifth one or would it be likely and I said I really did not know and I really have had so many protests about that: “Really! You must not give up! You must not say that!” so I said: “Well, I am quite prepared to go on!” and people were suggesting that if one was not prepared to go on, one might be a lame duck. I have never been a lame duck in my life and I do not intend to start now! I will go on as long as I am wanted or re-elected.