Interviewer
Prime Minister, perhaps I could start by asking you if you can remember when you first met Willie Whitelaw.
Prime Minister
It is very difficult just to remember. I remember that William Whitelawhe was in the Whips Office when I was a comparatively young Member of Parliament and I came into contact with him then and I remember thinking what a very strong personality he was and he usually got his way.
Interviewer
You thought of him as being a strong personality even at that stage? [end p1]
Prime Minister
A very powerful personality, oh yes, I think it strikes you immediately. The moment you have any business dealings, and of course Parliamentary dealings are business dealings.
Interviewer
But you were not close to him in those early years?
Prime Minister
Oh no, no indeed.
Interviewer
Why not?
Prime Minister
There are a lot of Members of Parliament. I was very junior to him and very much feeling my way so you would not have expected me to have been close to someone who was as elevated as a Whip.
Interviewer
What about when you actually stood for the Conservative leadership, how well did you know Willie Whitelaw by then, by 1975? [end p2]
Prime Minister
Really quite well because I had been in since 1959 and he had been even earlier and of course we had sat in the same Cabinet together from 1970 to - 1974. He had been, as you know, the supreme difficult job then, and also as now, Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, but he had taken it over when we went to direct rule and I think it required someone with Willie's personality to do that.
And then shortly before the election I think Edward HeathTed brought him back and he became Secretary of State for Labour, as it was in those days, Employment now.
So I had had a good deal of experience of seeing Willie bringing difficult situations to Cabinet, of discussing them, and always finding a way through. He does not just bring situations without a proposal, always with a proposal and then we discuss that.
Interviewer
When you say that in Northern Ireland it needed someone of his personality, how would you describe that personality?
Prime Minister
It is very difficult to describe something like that, is it not, although you can always recognise its strength. Let me say this, it is compounded of so many different things.
First, Willie is rooted in the country, as you know, and has all of the instincts of the true countryman. [end p3]
Secondly, he has all that is best in the courageous officer in the British Army, and above all the duty of caring for those who served with him.
Thirdly, by that time he had great experience of Parliament, but in addition experience is not enough unless you have an instinct, and Willie had an instinct for Parliament.
And fourth, he has that rare capacity of being able to distinguish between things that really matter, and you must really put your viewpoint and persist, and those which, well you might like to get your own way for very good reasons but it is not worth a real battle about.
Now those four things are tremendous and yet still it does not give you the man, a sense of humour, a sense of fellowship, a sense of belonging to a team, a sense of fighting for a cause. All of these things, and still it is not enough to describe Willie. He is pure gold.
Interviewer
That is very interesting. He was of course, one of the characteristics which comes out is his devoted loyalty to the Conservative leader of the day and he was devoted to Ted Heath and he says that in 1975, when you stood against Ted Heath in the first round of the Tory leadership, he desperately wanted Ted to stay on as leader and Willie Whitelaw says he was desperately upset when you beat Ted in the first round. Can you understand why? [end p4]
Prime Minister
Yes, I can understand that perfectly well. Willie is loyal. He is marvellously loyal and he understands the meaning and the need for loyalty because you can never get anything done on your own. And he understands that when several of you together may have slightly different views, that in order to go forward you have to talk it through and then be loyal to what you believe.
I have known and felt and been immensely grateful for Willie's loyalty and I understand why he felt precisely like that towards Ted. He is that sort of person and I think too few people understand the meaning and the need for loyalty. But not Willie, he knows and practises it.
Interviewer
So you were not surprised that he was able to transfer his loyalty, literally on the day that it was announced that you had won the Tory leadership and he announced that he was going to be loyal to you?
Prime Minister
Willie was absolutely wonderful and that is what I am trying to say, only Willie could have done that because he is a very big-minded man, big-minded, big-hearted. [end p5]
You see Willie obviously would have liked the leadership and in the end there were quite a lot of us who were in for it and I would have been totally loyal to Willie, had he won it, because I too knew that we must get ourselves together and go forward.
But for Willie, a much more senior person than I was, a person already with a colossal reputation, a person as I say who could bring all the country folk with him, a person who had this colossal leadership quality that we had seen in the Army.
For Willie to turn round and do that demonstrates the enormous big-mindedness and big-heartedness of the man. And so often I have relied on him since, in Cabinet, and the idea that it is easy in Cabinet is quite ridiculous, we have very very animated discussions. And when Willie realised that I felt passionately about something and there were good reasons for it and he knew and he would come in and weigh in and his voice would carry so much more weight than many other people, and many other people would follow it.
When I knew that we needed that kind of person to be Leader of the House of Lords, and he went to Their Lordships immediately, got the sense, the feeling, politician to the finger-tips that he is, Parliamentarian to the finger-tips that he is.
And do you know, sometimes we have great difficulty in getting particular things through Their Lordships' House in detail, and they too like to feel their strength and their power and frequently Willie's personality and his view would be accepted by them. [end p6]
Sometimes Willie would come to me and say: “Look, there is no way in which I can get that through and there is no point in using up such reputation as I have in fighting on that particular thing”.
The moment he said that then I knew that we had to find some kind of compromise and I would accept it because I totally relied upon his judgment in that, because he was really reliable.
At other times in Cabinet, if it got just a little bit tense, as it does sometimes, Willie with his great big booming voice, as big as his personality, could come out with something that was humorous, that was amusing, and then suddenly turn to the seriousness and we would get it through.
Interviewer
And he could defuse the situation?
Prime Minister
He could defuse it. There are not many people like that and I just think that politics in this period, in the post-war period, we have been extraordinarily lucky that we can attract people to politics of that calibre, because personalities matter very much. [end p7]
Interviewer
You were reported as saying at dinner at the Carlton Club: “Every Prime Minister needs a Willie”. What did you mean by that?
Prime Minister
Every Prime Minister needs someone of total loyalty, big personality, big mind, like Willie Whitelaw who has this Parliamentary instinct. They really do. There is no other person who can ever take Willie Whitelaw's place. And we miss him very much.
But I always know that he is there and if we need him to come and weigh in with his view in Their Lordships' House, he will do it. But he is so important, his view, his reputation so high, that one uses it but rarely. And he knows too when that time comes.
I think that I have learned a great deal from that great instinct but my gratitude to him is immense.
Interviewer
Do you think that you would have been able to achieve the things that you have achieved in the last ten years without the devoted loyalty of Willie Whitelaw?
Prime Minister
No, I am sure you could not. You can never do things totally alone. I think that is the mistake some people make when they think, oh, if you have several really big-minded independent Members of Parliament you could achieve things. You cannot. [end p8]
It is having a team and having enough to lead the rest and pull together. It is always teamwork and in that team you have got to have some people who are prepared to practise the qualities of leadership, say: “This I believe, now you can make up your minds before me or against me, but upon this I will not compromise”.
Some people in politics say: “Well let us see what the people think and then we will follow it” but how can people know what they think unless really strong views are put before them, and the reasons for it, and they see someone really prepared to stand upon that view. That is Willie Whitelaw.
Interviewer
It sounds more like a description of you.
Prime Minister
I have some of those qualities, Willie has them all.
Interviewer
He would describe you as leading from the front and he himself having a much more conciliatory …
Prime Minister
Yes I do, I lead from the front, I lead with the chin, and yes I do. But Willie has different qualities of leadership. [end p9]
Look we are not talking about me, we are talking about Willie.
Willie has different qualities of leadership which are quite outstanding and which are absolutely vital. You see you do not want necessarily people with the identical qualities that you have, you want people with a range of qualities, but you all believe in the same cause and you are all loyal to an ideal, which is far greater than any one of us. And that is what Willie's life has been, and still is.
Interviewer
It is just that in the way he describes the relationship, he says you are someone who leads from the front, you know what your goal is and are determined to go straight for it. Whereas he says that he was the person who would be more conciliatory and would sometimes be the person who might calm you down or pick up the pieces, that he saw his role as a different one from the way that you saw your role.
Prime Minister
Yes, but remember when you first asked me, I said that Willie had this fantastic capacity to distinguish between the things that really mattered and those which, all right it would be nice to have them but it was not worth going to the stake for. [end p10]
Willie knew when I would go to the stake, and Willie knew when to say: “Now look, does that really matter? Yes you would like it but it is not one of the great big cornerstones of your policy”. And sometimes in order to get the big things through you have to compromise on the smaller things.
I remember, that was my very first experience and perhaps that was where I first came in touch with Willie was it, when I was a new Member and I had a Private Members Bill I came very top in the ballot and there were great arguments in the country then because there were some local councils which did not allow members of the press into their deliberations, which was quite wrong. And so I had a Bill to ensure that they could go in to see those and of the main Committee, so that they could not just resolve themselves into committee and exclude the press.
I was greatly criticised for that and we had then to start to compromise in committee. We still kept the main point going but I could not get the whole loaf, I could get a bit more than half, I could get three-quarters, and I learned then to do that and I think that then I might have got some advice from Willie at that time. Because when you do feel passionately about something, you would like the whole lot, but other people feel passionately and so you thought out what matters.
This has always been Willie and so yes he said: “Well look all right, the price of getting your main things through is to compromise on that”. [end p11]
But what people simply will not accept is that because you believe that, you have got to have everything as you want it. And of course he was quite outstanding in that. And of course we do compromise on the secondary things so long as the real belief goes through.
I suppose the essence of being in politics, which Willie knows and I do, is that you know the things upon which you stick, you know the things which are so big you will never compromise on them, you would rather go down fighting than be a turncoat just to stay in politics.
Willie knew the things on which we would compromise because that too is the sort of person he is, but perhaps he had more powers of conciliation than I had, or have.
Interviewer
He said that you would never meet socially, that yours was a great political friendship and you would go to some lengths to avoid meeting socially. Why was this?
Prime Minister
I do not think I have much time for social occasions, but I do spend, if I had an evening to spend I would have a few friends in and we would talk, but the chances are we would talk about politics, ever since I came here. [end p12]
But before that, I am in politics not as an occupation, I am in politics because it is a passion, it is a fascination, because I cannot get away from it. I did not really have much spare time for social occasions. And I am not a golfer, Denis ThatcherDenis is the golfer, so Denis could go and play with Willie and I always knew what Willie was doing with golf, and Willie shoots and has the countryside pursuits, and we do not.
One was amazingly glad that he did. Perhaps I became very much absorbed with work but when I did other things it was perhaps very much in some of the arts because sometimes you want to take your mind totally out of the things you are dealing with. You must because otherwise things will go round and round and they will get out of perspective. And then, you must take to music, music takes you out of yourself completely or you must go and talk about something else, or you go and talk to Willie Whitelaw because then things will get in perspective.
But I suppose his country pursuits and his golf, I would go and do gardening, but it is very difficult from the kind of life which Willie led which I think has had a great deal in shaping this man of fantastic duty, fellowship, humour, warmth and bigness in every way. You know the booming voice is so much part of Willie and is viewed with so much affection, affection, so much affection. [end p13]
Interviewer
He comes of course from a very different tradition of Conservatism from you. I wonder if you see any paradox that he, from the land-owning gentry, in a tradition of Disraelian Conservatism, should be your loyal ally?
Prime Minister
No, no, no, I have never seen any paradox in that. We all trace our ancestry from someone who had never been heard of, do we not? And the Good Lord scatters talent and ability round, regardless of whether you are born in cottage or country house, He scatters it around all over the place and He scatters personality around all over the place.
And so you go and the people you get together are people with the right character, the people with the right personality, the people who share your goals, the people who share your passion to achieve them.
And always you are looking for the kind of person, you do not care two hoots who his father is, it is the kind of person. And after all, we all started from being people who, well we all came up in the same way.
Interviewer
Yes, I suppose I was thinking more of a tradition of Toryism, that you have transformed both the Tory Party and the country in many ways and he has been your loyal ally although a much more traditional Tory than you? [end p14]
Prime Minister
Oh tremendously, but do you not think that one of the great traditions of this country over the last two hundred years has been what is called its upward mobility? You start, you do well at school in education, and you start to climb the ladder. This has been the great tradition, the great gift of the grammar schools I think to the whole country. It was the ladder from the bottom to the top and education was or you would find people who did well.
This is another great thing about Britain, people who did well, did well for themselves, and then they turned round and they said they must do something for the community. I talk much more about a community of people than societies, a society is a concept, a community is real people and this is how our great inner cities were built, by people who did well in industry or in the great services or finances, and then said: “Well now we want great buildings in the town, we must have a nice hospital, we want a great orchestra, we must have an art gallery, we must support a choir, we must build a city”. And that is how they did build cities.
And then they turned and look the great, fantastic, example was the great Earl of Shaftesbury, who devoted his life first to forming a Sunday School for ragged children, then for forming places where they could eat, then for forming clubs, then for going into the factories and saying people cannot work in these circumstances.
That man spent every penny of his income and more on building the country of people as people for whom he thought the present circumstances were not enough, Wilberforce was another. [end p15]
These are great people who used their position, but their beliefs, their character. And this is why, no matter from whence you come, you find it now. I was brought up this way. British people do not have to be told what to do, they know, they have enough initiative, they get on and do it.
And of course we learnt it from the people who taught it to us, but as people came up that became a fundamental part of the British character, and it still is.
So the people who came to the top first showed the way for the rest of us and now you can get to the top from anywhere.
But you know you cannot have a community just with people from the top. You have all got your role to play and that is how it is working out now. We are all different because each person is unique, absolutely unique, and therefore each has something special to give. We are all equally important but we are all unique and working together. We have now got the working together on a wider scale, that is the fascinating thing.
It used to be the local community and your country because patriotism is a great quality if you believe in the values, and now it is working together on a much wider scale. But it is these same qualities, of which Willie is perhaps one of the greatest examples. [end p16]
Interviewer
If I could ask you just a couple of final questions. One is, I was asking Lord Whitelaw about you and how long he thought you might go on and he said that he hoped you would go on for a very long time because there was still so much work to do, but the Prime Minister is not immortal and he said: “No, but perhaps she is immortal”.
Prime Minister
What a sweet thing of Willie to say! I am not immortal and I do not know how long I will go on, no-one does, and I cannot venture an opinion.
So long as I am here I will carry on doing the things which I believe in and believe in passionately, and I think with a team and Willie is still Deputy Leader of the Party, now and then I will say to Willie: “Please come in and talk”. And I shall do it again many times because I know that people of his calibre, of his humanity, are there, still giving their great service, their great gifts, to this country and to all the things we believe in.