Interviewer
Prime Minister, why are you optimistic about southern Africa?
Prime Minister
Because I think there are very great changes there. There have already been a number of changes and as you know, it would seem that President Botha himself will retire not later than next March and possibly earlier and one knows that, perhaps if I might put it that the younger generation really believe that negotiations are the way to settle the problem. They know that negotiations will have to start soon and they are prepared to start them.
Interviewer
Is this why you are seeing South African Ministers in London in the next few months? [end p1]
Prime Minister
Yes. I saw Pik Botha when he came through the other day.
I have always felt that perhaps we have not been right in isolating South Africa. You know, we disagreed with the Soviet Union but we never isolated its Ministers or its Leaders. We have isolated South Africa and I think had they come to London or other countries more frequently, then they would have seen that we do not have the racial discrimination that they have there and they would have been much more forthright. It would have been brought to an end much more easily than it has.
So I did say to Mr. Pik Botha, their Foreign Minister: “If others of your Ministers are coming anywhere near London or if they would make a special visit to London, we would very much like to see them to see if there is anything constructive we can do to help!”
Interviewer
But what do you want them to do to dismantle apartheid?
Prime Minister
That can only be done by negotiation. The economy in South Africa is offering far more opportunities for black South Africans, the educational system offering far more opportunities. There were far more black South Africans that matriculated on leaving school this year than there were white. “Yes!” you say, “So there should be!” but there are, and there are many many highly cultured and many many very very comfortable black South Africans as well. [end p2]
The most irritating thing for them must be that with education, with success in business, they are not allowed to take part in government.
The first thing, obviously, is to release Nelson Mandela and unban some of the political organisations. Once that is done, the only way you can go ahead is to get round a table with the several representatives of different black groupings in South Africa and steadily alter any legislation that needs to be changed, such as the Group Areas Act, and have a conference about the future constitution of South Africa.
It will not be quick, but once you know the discussions are under way, the whole atmosphere will change.
Interviewer
You do not want to isolate South Africa, yet you are isolating the ANC. Should they be part of this conference which you are calling for?
Prime Minister
That is not for me to decide. As you know, I have stuck very firmly to not myself ever seeing organisations which have espoused or still espouse violence as a way of taking their case forward. [end p3]
When you enter into negotiations, as at Lancaster House, there is a fundamental agreement that you are giving up violence, you are foresaking violence so that you can have arrangements about having a proper ballot for a proper constitutional non-discriminatory government.
What kind of arrangements they should make is a matter for them. What kind of constitution they should have is a matter for them. We cannot tell them what to do. It is for them to decide how they are going to live.
Interviewer
Mr. Mugabe clearly does not share your view that persuasion and encouragement can really work for the South Africans.
Prime Minister
No. That was evident from his speech last night. I am not surprised, but I do know that Robert Mugabehe hopes he is wrong.
Interviewer
What makes you think you are right? [end p4]
Prime Minister
Because of the enormous changes that have already taken place, changes two years ago we would not have thought possible - that the Cubans would be leaving Angola; that could not have come about unless South Africa also was willing to negotiate; and the prominent part which the United States played in that and the Soviet Union. That is a very great achievement.
Two or three years ago, we were almost despairing about whether Namibia could be brought to independence. Now, the United Nations representative is there and some British troops are there under the United Nations flag to help bring about free and fair elections. There is a whole new approach to solving old problems. That approach is: eschew violence and embark upon negotiations, and it is affecting, I believe, the whole of southern Africa.
The most difficult one apart from South Africa, is of course Mozambique, where there is a vicious terrorist organisation - Renamo - which is most brutal.
Interviewer
Do you think you will have to fight off the sanctions issue at the next Commonwealth Conference in October? [end p5]
Prime Minister
I hope that it will not be prominent. I think it will be quite absurd if it is. It seems to me quite absurd if, when you have got a country like South Africa, where your black South Africans are doing enormously better economically and in their distribution of shares to employees in a company - black people get them as well as the white, of course they do! The industries are training black people for higher and higher managerial jobs and when you have the prospect of independence for Namibia which South Africa was previously running and the settlement in Angola, it is absurd, and things are moving quite fast in the right direction - quite major changes in South Africa - to say: “You are doing the things we want! We are going to hit you in a very hard way by having sanctions!”
When people are doing the right thing, you encourage them to go further and I think that President Botha started some of the reforms. I think that he is not able to complete them. He cannot achieve that. He has not been well. I think the new generation to whom the torch will be handed is wanting to get ahead and get this fundamental problem solved and they have been quite forthright in saying so.