Prime Minister
Here in No 10 Downing Street we are very excited to hear about Cleansweep '89. We know it has excited also a lot of interest locally and we want to know what the results of this great experiment are going to be.
We are all talking about the environment. It is important that it is not only the tropical forests or the ozone layer or the greenhouse effect, but that it involves the surroundings in which we live, that we keep those clean and tidy.
I travel quite a lot and so do a lot of tourists. When I get to a town or village, or through the motorways, the thing I notice first is: “Are they tidy? Are they kept well?” so that people can have pride in their village, their city, where they live. [end p1]
We notice something else too. If you get a place clean, it stays clean. If there is litter, people will throw it down. We want to lift the whole appearance of Britain. We want all our villages and towns to be tidy.
So we really express our warm congratulations to North-West tonight. May you have every success and may you be truly proud of the place in which you live. [end p2]
Interviewer
Prime Minister, how seriously do you view the problem of litter?
Prime Minister
Very seriously indeed. It affects the whole atmosphere of a town. It is the thing by which you judge: “Are these people proud of their city, their village, or are they not?”
When I travel abroad, representing Britain, if you go to a city where it is extremely clean you look around and the whole spirit of the place is different. I remember one vividly - the Economic Summit last year. Seven Heads of Government and State gathered together and as we had dinner that evening to talk about things, what was the first thing we said to one another: “Toronto, it is so clean, there are no graffiti, the people are so courteous, they are so proud of their city”. Now that was seven of us, immediately. What a difference it made!
Interviewer
But how can we reincarnate this pride in Britain which is the dirtiest nation in the EEC? [end p3]
Prime Minister
Every single person has to be involved in doing this. Yes people have to be taught at school but also I think parents have to say: “Look, don't leave the litter about, wrap it up and bring it home. If you put it down, who is going to pick it up?”
And they have to learn pride in their city, it is something that every child can do, every parent, every person. And you know it works. When I went to the first Garden City Exhibition that we had in Liverpool it was lovely, it was beautiful, and as I looked there was not a piece of litter anywhere. And they said: “Oh but we started to pick it up and people do not throw it down”.
It is no good talking in great big terms about being green or the environment if on the way to the meeting you throw something down or you see litter and you do not pick it up. But the best thing is: get it clean, keep it clean. It involves everyone.
Interviewer
We have found in our campaign so far that possibly 90 percent of our populace, the public spirited, respond in a public spirited fashion. But what about the recalcitrent 10 percent, the people who will rebel, the people who will not be made aware of the problem at all, what can we do about that? [end p4]
Prime Minister
You have put your finger really on the problem of modern democracy. Well over 90 percent are thoroughly decent people who want to live outwardly and inwardly good lives. They work hard, they like places to be clean, they like to be courteous, kindly, and thoughtful, and they do everything right. And everything, crime is a much smaller proportion, everything can be upset by that difficult 10 percent.
We have a Litter Law you know, you can be fined for throwing things down. Here in Westminster, where we are talking, there is a special private Bill put through so that you can be fined on-the-spot, unless you choose to go to Court.
But there is so much else, you know, for the police to do. You are almost reluctant to put it at the top of their list of requests because it would mean taking time to take people to court. And so perhaps it has not been invoked as fully as it should be. It may be that we have to have a great campaign because we really must get Britain tidy. It may be that each of us, if we see someone throwing something down, should just go up and say: “Look, who do you think is going to pick it up, doesn't it matter to you that it is tidy as well”.
Interviewer
You would not believe in punitive measures for that? [end p5]
Prime Minister
I am always very reluctant to put them on but of course this is why you have to have a law about crime because you do have to have it punitive and some of the countries on the Continent have a general duty of care, that every shop, office, factory or house is responsible for keeping the pavement in front of their house or shop tidy.
In a way that is better because sometimes you know, outside a restaurant in the evening you will see great big plastic bags put outside and someone comes and kicks it over and it is filthy. It also is thoroughly unhygienic, bacteria can multiply, it can attract mice and vermin and it may be that we have to come to that.
This is why really we are so grateful that you are putting so much publicity and so much emphasis on it. Let us see if we can do it voluntarily. We are really a voluntary nation.
But of course the people who would do it, would not mind having a law about it because they would obey it and others would have to be brought to it. But let us see if we can get them to share the pride in their town, their city, because you know we have so many tourists coming here, we must show them that we are a very very clean country. [end p6]
Interviewer
Do you think the environment should be part of the school curricula, that education starts with the young, because current thinking is that it is the base of the pyramid - litter - which then leads to graffiti, which then leads to petty crime, so we have the base of discipline in schools?
Prime Minister
It is all part of not caring about the people next to you and it is all part of the way you talk to them, whether you are courteous, whether you are thoughtful or not. It is all part of the environment.
I agree, I think the first impression you get of course is from home and nothing can obviate that and nothing can substitute for it. It is what you are taught at home as a tiny child, what you see around you, you absorb the standards, you absorb what your parents say to you. You notice by example precisely what goes on.
But then yes it is very important that the Tidy Britain group, I know it does quite a lot in schools and has done for quite a long time, that it is taught in places like the Guides, the Brownies, the Cubs, the Scouts. But all of those are the people who observe it. But I think that is why it is so important that those of us who do feel strongly about it do our level best to keep things clean. [end p7]
But as I said, there is this other instinct, and I know they found this in Paris too, they had to clean up Paris and clean up the graffiti and then somehow people did not do it because you notice if someone throws it down and then you can identify who does it. They notice, and then you can identify quickly who does it.
So the two things work: first, those of us who care carry on what we care about and teach it to others; and secondly that we get it tidy so that we can do it by example.
I think Government has given something like £3 million too.
Interviewer
Is it enough because Paris committed nine thousand men and a fleet of lorries to clearing up Paris, enormous resources?
Prime Minister
It may be that we in fact have to do that but what we are doing here is about sixteen experiments to see if it works. Now if it does not we shall have to go to something else because we have simply got to get this problem licked, we really have.
Interviewer
Can we go into the 1990s a more tidy, more beautiful Britain?
Prime Minister
That would be our objective - beautify Britain - it really would be and we would feel so much better about it.