I'm not up at 6 am. I start listening to the incoming news at 6 am. I'm not up until 7. By then I've heard the agricultural news, the news and financial news and listening to radio. Lying in bed relaxing. Quite busy after one has got up. There's quite a lot to put away from the night before, last night's papers to finish off, getting up and seeing what I have for the day. And just getting my thoughts in order for the day. I have very little breakfast. It tends to be a rather busy time because there's a rather lot going on.
Denis? His own man: very much so. (ever lonely?) you're conscious that the flat's empty. You always are. If you're used to living a family life and the children have flown the nest a long time ago, and Denis isn't there and isn't coming in, yes, then there is an emptiness. You use it either to work longer hours or to do certain things you can just get on with when you're there alone. There is an emptiness there sometimes.
Separate quarters? He has a separate study upstairs. So when he is working he goes down to that. I have a study here. So I don't need one up there. I tend to work in the sitting room upstairs. We sometimes tend to bump into one another. Sometimes I go upstairs and he's got someone in the sitting room, not in the study. No separate bedrooms? No. He has more sleep than I have. He tends to want to go to bed earlier.
Breakfast? We tend during the week not to have a cooked breakfast unless we're both going out on tour together and there might be a regular meal during the day. We tend at the moment not to have breakfast except at weekends at Chequers. He has more breakfast than I do. I have very little.
Looks/weight? You go up and down a bit, you just learn how to dress to cope with the many engagements you have and you learn that it matters. Sometimes you have to diet consciously otherwise you just keep on expanding. If you notice that you put it on then you simply have to consciously take it off. It's not easy, not easy, because I never get a week without some luncheons or dinners, officials luncheons or dinners. So you're not always in charge of your diet.
Facelift? Good heavens, no. I hope it hasn't dropped yet. I don't think I ever would have one. As one of my friends said, “I spent a long time getting these lines and I don't see why I should spend a lot of money having them taken away.”
Cabinet meeting style: it's very difficult for me to describe my style because you're not very conscious of it. You're not as conscious of your own style as other people are. You don't see yourself in operation any more than an actor can see himself when he's on a stage. Not that I'm suggesting the Cabinet is a stage in any way. It isn't. You tend not to know your own manners. Certainly it's my job to get the business through and sometimes it's my job to get [end p1] the decision which I think is the right way to go. Sometimes you will not have a very particularly strong idea of which way it should go, because of so much on one side or the other. Then you just tend to see what the arguments are. Certainly I conduct it in a way that the decisions have got to be taken. And on the big things I know the decisions that I want to get.
Aggressive? Determined might be a better word. I think that's right. But there's never, never any feeling of - what's the word - not resentment, rancour. There's never any feeling of rancour. If one has an argument, there's nothing persists. One wouldn't dream of … life's far too short to hold a grudge. I never hold any grudges. I hope to goodness people don't hold any against me. Life is far too short for grudges. And there's far too much to do. Sometimes it is vigorous. Yes, it is vigorous.
By forcing action you get a better deal? Well, dear, I'm not always the one that stirs it up. Other people might stir it up in arguing against me and then you persist. Then you do come out very animatedly and very vigorously. And there are times when I say no, I will not accept that because the deal is not good enough. This is how we eventually got the budget deal through in Europe. We had to fight very hard. And John MacgregorThe agricultural Minister still has to fight very hard for a reasonable agricultural policy. But when it comes to negotiating some things on arms control, yes, you know just exactly where you think we should be and with U.S. Usually on the same side, yes, I have fought very vigorously in NATO.
Be tougher than anyone not to show chinks? No, not tougher, tougher, why? I'm tough because I believe in what I want to do and I believe that mine is the right answer unless I find an argument which I had not thought of which is very very rare. Sometimes the negotiations are tough because someone else will hold another view equally strongly and that is when the negotiations are really difficult, but you have to find a way through. And sometimes I will accept what is done as reasonable under all the circumstances and sometimes I say there is no way (stress) I can get that through my Parliament. No way would I try to put it to my Parliament. The fact that I have to come back and appear before Parliament twice a week makes me very much more aware of the political problems and it is a great advantage. (over the U.S.?) yes, and over my colleagues in Europe. Not many, not all of them have such a tough Parliament as we and on the other hand some of them do. Mr. Sholte [Poul Schlouter?] has a similar Parliament.
Sometimes hang in or people say “oh, she's a woman”:? I don't think that they've ever said that. Never said that to me. I think the personality has been strong enough. It's the personality you look at and the amount of preparation you do for these things. You do a fantastic amount of preparation. I've never thought I must hang in there or they'll think I'm a woman. I've thought simply I must hang in there because I simply must get the best deal for us, compatible with the European Community. [end p2]
Not even in early days? Ministries/your own motivation. I have to work harder: no, I would naturally work hard because I would know if I were going into debate, I would naturally brief myself very hard and try to work out the lines of argument. Right from the beginning, I did, very much so when I was parliamentary secretary at the ministry of pensions and national insurance. It is something when you have to do two things: both get the broad strategy lines, the broad structural lines of the whole system and then start to know the detail. You must never lose sight of the broad strategic lines, never let the detail overcome the broad strategy. But I would naturally do that. It's not because I'm a woman. I've never said I'm a woman. I must work harder. I would naturally work harder. All my training was with a scientific background and a legal background. They're both find the facts and apply the law, but find the facts. I've been very conscious of what are the facts, first find the facts and apply them. And where do we want to get there and way.
‘yes Minister’? I watch ‘yes, Prime Minister’ and enjoy it enormously.
Their portrayal of bureacracy? It has an element of truth in it. Not more than that, but an element. And a very pointed element, a very appropriate (stops to search for precise word) one always wants a thesaurus. Sensitive isn't quite the right word. Appropriate hasn't got enough consonants. Perceptive, that is the word I wanted. A very perceptive element of truth in it. Or canny.
Your attitudes re bureaucracy? You can see it working sometimes. All of a sudden you go through a paper. They know that I say sometimes, “I don't like this paper. It looks as though you so selected the things you've put before me that there's only one possible conclusion from this paper. Now you just argue the other way. What are the other factors? Start to argue on the other side.” oh yes, you can tell sometimes, if you're being perceptive. We've cut it down a lot. But don't forget we've got a very much better framework. Government framework in which people can take their own decisions. So a lot of decisions are being moved away from government out back to the citizens where they belong and that is what has made the difference.
Women friends: I have several. Just couldn't possibly do without them. They've changed over the years because a number were older than me. I still have older women friends and a number around me in my immediate circle who are very very close. I'd rather not name any because if you name one it only makes it difficult for others.
See Muriel? Not a lot no. We telephone one another. Muriel RobertsShe's down in the country helping to run a farm and I'm here. I just don't have very much time, even at weekends. And she's very busy, don't forget. They're a big family. She goes out to the family sometimes and they come in to her. But if you're running a farm it's very much a family concern. (and if you're running a country it's a lot of work?) yes, it's a lot of work. [end p3]
A loner or go with territory?: A loner in what sense? But I've always had people who similarly believed in what I was doing. Right from the beginning, from the day I became leader. I put my name into the leadership because I believe in certain things and that particular group, Keith Joseph, quite outstanding, and myself and gathered people together and we knew what we wanted to do. Indeed, it was after our defeat in 1974 that Keith said we ought to work things out from the beginning which was marvellous. I thought we would have to do that alone. Then he was able to get enough people together, money together to start up the centre for policy studies and there're so many academics and people who believed in the same things that we did, so we literally started ab initio from the principles and started to work up.
And then I had never thought of being leader of the party. Why should i? I was very active with a particular role in politics, Secretary of State for Education, I was just concerned to go on in politics. The party was insisting that we had a leadership election. I had assumed that Keith JosephKeith would stand for the leadership election. Then one day he just came in and said he didn't really think he could stand. Then I knew that I just had to stand. I didn't really know what would happen but I knew I had a different viewpoint and that viewpoint … people must have a chance to vote, not necessarily for me, but for that viewpoint.
Denis your best friend?: Yes, Denis Thatcherhe is. I haven't got a kitchen Cabinet. I don't have cronies. And we've never run a kitchen Cabinet. Some people whom I know particularly hold the same views as I do, but I think you have to be very careful not to have a kitchen Cabinet.
Poets? I don't know if I have a favourite. I like Keats. Shelley, Gray's ‘Elegy in a country churchyard’ is absolutely fantastic, people like William Blake, remarkable use of language, absolutely fantastic and this man with so little education came out with this fantastic poetry. Rupert Brooke, a totally different style. I love his clear expressions. Milton, quite remarkable. Wordsworth. I thought some of Philip Larkin's work was … he's just about the most modern to which I go. Some of Thomas Hardy … (written any?) no.
Theatre/cinema? Not a lot. Now and again we go to theatre for shows we like. It's usually, I'm afraid, the Haymarket where we go. We'd go to see an Andrew Lloyd Webber musical because the music is so fantastic. We go to Covent Garden once or twice a year. We usually go to Glyndebourne. So that's quite a number of things throughout the year. I do go quite a lot to the Royal Academy or to the National Gallery, I just think that the arts play such a considerable part, if not so much a larger part in your life as you wish, very considerable part of your consciousness and the richness that they add to life. In my young day we did not have access to beautiful pictures very much, so I really when I began to learn more about them, really began to learn more about them and appreciate them and the richness we have in the galleries here, the museums and the Academy. [end p4]
Went to see ‘Anyone for Denis’: I don't read ‘Private Eye’. Denis ThatcherDenis gets letters. People actually think that he writes “Dear Bill”. Then when some are published, he got books sent to him asking him to sign them.
Must be difficult being your kids. They're thirty-five. They're independent. You keep contact, of course. Mark ThatcherMark now is away, lives overseas. But comes through as much as he can. But they've both got pretty strong personalities. Both go their own way. And I think they have carved their own way and have had to. Carol ThatcherCarol has done wonders. To go into something like the media with your mother either leader of the opposition or Prime Minister really says a great deal for her. And to be able to keep the remarkable reputation she has among journalists of being really one of the wonderful journalists, I think is terrific. If she saw a string that could be pulled, she'd run a mile rather than pull it. She's done it entirely herself.
Religion's importance: religion is the basis of everything I believe which stems from it. There's a mixture of the old testament and new, are really the only religion - you can't call it two religions, in a way it is - it's the only fundamental religion which elevated the sanctitiy and dignity of the individual human being as being highly significant. You'll not find it so expressed in quite that way in other religions which have a much more becoming part of something big, and that is your aim, or scriptures, old testament and new, start really from the fundamental significance and importance and accountability of the individual as well as of the nation. It is from that the human rights movement, that each person matters, has sprung.
That accounts for the British character and when we went out into the world of empires and so on, we did. We made a number of mistakes, but we did try to teach a rule of law which I think has been second to none in the world, the way our common law developed. And coming up to a rule of parliamentary democracy which I think, I am very much conscious we got things wrong in the United States, but fortunately there were a lot of people here who were absolutely against what happened. But I think our rule of law has been absolutely critical in the development of liberty the world over. Because you cannot have liberty without a just, fair, equitable law. The contribution of this country to that has been without equal.
Father's influence: I can tell you just exactly. You never follow the crowd. You work things out for yourself. And therefore if you think differently from the crowd, you must put your own view and try to get people taking your line. But you never follow the crowd. You never do things just because other people are doing them. So consciously we were always taught to read and think at home as well as at school. My Alfred Robertsfather had to leave school at thirteen in those days, no possibility of going on to education, though he had an extremely good brain, though he was extremely well self-educated, got hold of every book he could and read and read, and I remember once asking what was this thing called the fiduciary issue. And he could tell me precisely. Gold standard. He could tell me. So we were taught to read and to [end p5] discuss. One of the shortcomings these days is that television stops a lot of discussion. Because he didn't have the formal education, the object of his life was to see that we had the very best education possible. Education in its widest sense. Not just what you got at school, what you got at home, what you could get by reading by being interested in reading, in music, which I was, what you could get from poetry. He always took us out and about a lot. If anyone well-known came to town you were taken, so that you if there were any beautiful exhibitions, we would go to see them so that your eyes were open, not just to your immediate problems but to the wonders of the world and the problems of the world. And really, because each generation of parents tries to give to their children what they haven't had, so anything that one wanted; ‘please can I go out to hear a lecture?’ something educational, immediately; if one wanted to go out for something entertainment, it was really very different. That was a little bit trivial.
Was he left of centre? No Alfred Robertshe came from an old liberal family, but I would never have called him left of centre. He was what I'd call much more right of centre liberal. We were brought up to work hard. In methodist church to work hard.
Ever punished/spanked? You'd be reprimanded pretty strongly. But I can't remember being hit as it were.
After fourteen nothing to talk about with mother? Didn't have anything to talk about. My Beatrice RobertsMother did a great many things for me. She was marvellous. She worked in the shop, she was a very good dressmaker, she had her own business. She was so busy doing the work that when people say, “you work extremely hard,” I say, “so did my mother”. She had to work in shops, she ran the house, did the cooking, she did some of the decorating, she joined in the church things, she'd be in the sewing groups; everytime there was a bake we'd be taught to take some things out to other people who might like homemade cakes or bread. It was only in the sense that when we had discussions on political things she did not join in so much because she was probably making us a dress. (Other interests?) Yes.
The Martha rather than Mary: because she did all of those things in the household. As a child you take for granted: as a mother you know just how much effort goes into them; the Martha was the practical one; Mary was the one who wanted to talk. It just fits in beautifully with what I've said before.
Resentment/envy at school? No, everyone has something. Others were better at sports than I was, at arts. One person is good at one thing, another good at another. (Margaret Roberts always had the answers; why can't you be more like Margaret?) oh, how terrible for them; how absolutely dreadful for them! (Ever come back to you?) No.
Any boys in Grantham: no. Don't forget I left when I was seventeen and went to university.
Lunch with father and Norman Winning about law: my father used to take me around when he was Mayor of Grantham and [end p6] sitting on magistrates bench so I went to listen and found a world. He used to talk about it. I was lunching with Norman Winning, said “I'm becoming very interested in this but my die is cast, I'm doing chemistry.” he said carry on with your chemistry, I took a physics degree first, then went to law.
Disappointed when not into Somerville at first? Yes, but I knew I was trying to get in a year ahead. But yes, disappointed. But looking back, your disappointments seem so small, but anyway, I got in.
Father drove to Oxford? No, I went by train. We always went by train. Went by myself. Put a trunk on and be taken off at Oxford.
How paid? Finances were tight. I had some bursaries. We managed. He never let one know just how tight it was. (Bursary means work?) No it's a mini-scholarship.
Hated Oxford at first? Homesick? No, I don't know where that came from. No. No. I suppose we're all homesick when we go. It really was such a fantastic opportunity. I was immensely appreciative.
Shy? Not unusually shy. Because I was used to debating. I come from a small town. But I wasn't the only one who came from a small town. Shy isn't the right … (Careful, conscious?) Yes, yes, conscious that you've moved into a different sphere. It would be a pretty arrogant person who didn't feel conscious that it was a fantastic opportunity.
Teasing about your accent? I don't remember any. I don't remember any at all. I've seen this written many, many times. It's totally untrue. (No elocution at Oxford?) No, no.
Boyfriends: no special ones. Went out and about and enjoyed oneself in groups.
Earl's son fancied you? Earl's son? I have no idea.
Pragmatic choice of chemistry? I had a marvelous chemistry teacher who opened up a marvellous scientific world to us. But also one was thinking, don't forget the days they were. I was thinking, now what sort of job does one want? And very obviously chemistry and plastics, lots of new things were happening. Very obviously it was something where one could find a job, I did it because I liked the subject very much, but one wanted to feel that one had opportunity, wider opportunities for a job. So many people went to university with my background to teach in those days. But I thought if one took chemistry one had wider opportunities to go into industry which I found interesting.
Hodgkin said you not all that interested in chemistry? Yes, I was interested in chemistry at the time, I was also interested in law and politics. One kept enlarging one's views. Not getting less interested in some but more interested in others. [end p7]
Goodrich said interested in politics and study? Yes, isn't difficult … I was becoming very, very interested in politics. We'd been very conscious of the thirties period. Don't forget in my background we knew all about Hitler, and when we went to University. We were going for a much shorter time than would have been the case, because one would have been called up. Also, if you had a scientific bent, you were encouraged to take science because you would be needed. So I was fascinated. (the political scene rather than the politics?) certainly I enjoyed the political clubs there because I was interested in the political scene and we had a lot of discussions and certainly I was interested in study. But I couldn't possibly have contemplated going into politics myself because the pay was very small. I think not enough to live on. It just didn't enter into my mind in those early days. It was not until about 1945 when mps began to be paid that it could have become remotely possible. (after you helped Quintin Hogg beat Frank Pakenham?) yes, Quintin Hogg, I remember that. I was fascinated even in those days. Yes, go on.
A student from the continent, a friend of Muriel's: he went to rotary and together we got her over. She came over to us and then went to live with several people in Rotary club. We all knew her. (Some of the Hitler understanding from her?) Oh, very much so. Just at that time, there were starting to be which is what alerted Alfred RobertsMy father, and he felt we simply must do everything we could. There were some articles breaking through into the Daily Telegraph. It was quite extraordinary, not a lot of truth came through to our country. Not a lot of people knew it. Then Douglas Reed, wrote ‘Insanity Fair’. He was writing articles in the daily telegraph. So we were starting to learn some things. We had a doctor in the town who came from Germany years before, a very, very good doctor. Our shop was not just a grocer's shop but we stayed open quite late in the evenings and the weekends. Many people would say, let's go have a talk with Mr. Roberts. I would go in and listen. So we were told some of the things going on. So actually, after the Anschluss. After Hitler Marches into Vienna, more became known. So my father said yes we simply must do everything possible and did. We began to be very much aware.
Bach choir? Yes, love to sing. I had been brought up to music. Methodism is a musical faith because of Charles Wesley. We had so many oratorios in our church.
Attracted to anglicanism? I went to Wesley's chapel but I sometimes went to St. Mary's church. C. S. Lewis - his works were very, very important during my time there. We had discussion groups. I did become more attracted to it although I still attended the Methodist church. If you read Lewis. Then until this day, he did the lectures, something like christian behaviour and ‘the screwtape letters’, and we were all discussing them. I thought some of his work was the most illuminating to people reaching out to christianity because you're always questioning particularly at that age and you're looking for reassurance and for answers. Indeed you go on questioning throughout your life. I did think C. S. Lewis had some of the most remarkable - still do - christian writings that I've come across. But then I've thought … [end p8] don't forget John Wesley regarded himself as a member of the Church of England. But most of the discussions took place in the context of the Methodist church, a much more formal Methodist church there than anything I had been used to.
Wasn't C. of E. Better for politics than Methodist?: Oh no, no. I wouldn't have thought that had any effect on one's politics. I just wouldn't. It might have been thought that Methodists might have been more liberal, but that was the Methodist thought I had been brought up in. But it was very much the Adam Smith liberal tradition.
Church? It doesn't make the slightest bit of difference at all. Not at all in any way. I've never read that. But then I don't read books about me. I'm afraid the myths go on being perpetuated.
Generous hostess? My Beatrice RobertsMother used to bake things and send them. And we used to go and queue for cake outside the cake factory. (Share care packages?) Oh, yes, you used to keep it for that purpose.
On to British xylonite: called duchess? No, I have no idea being called that. I wouldn't say I was particularly refined.
Selection at Dartford and Finchley, not easy being selected as a woman? That is correct. It is not. Even now I'd like far more women to be chosen. It's not easy. They have to do very well at the selection committee. We are getting more through now. I'd like to get so many more through. The same is true in the states. It might come along soon because so many more women are running businesses' getting to the top of professions. Whether it is … partly it is that many women are having their children early and still keep in touch with their business or profession and therefore it is easier to resume it more full time afterwards. But in politics, it is partly geographic. The fact is I could never, never have entered politics if Denis Thatchermy husband had a job a long way from London because I would not have liked to leave the children when they were young. So I was just lucky that I got Dartford, that I met Denis, got married, lived in London. Eventually got a London constituency and I worked in London. I think myself, and same must be true in United States, that women with a young family, who like me, simply could not contemplate leaving their home and moving to Washington or leaving and going to London. You feel guilty about it. You feel you were missing your children and they were missing you and this wasn't fair to them. This is a factor keeps many women out of politics.
First meeting Denis? First impressions? Drove me to London, I caught train, to Colchester. I thought him very able, very knowledgeable; very serious. He was very interested in economic matters and I learned a lot from him. He knew all about managerial accounts and knew how to run a company and knew business and he was in the chemical business and I knew a bit about that too. Very very serious. It clicked as having a great deal in common. It was a common interest. Sometimes it's better to start that way because that endures. [end p9]
Mbe? He loved his service in the armed forces. Still takes every opportunity to go and see armed forces. It's a military mbe.
Commuter. What paper? Times or Telegraph. Only one. Couldn't afford two.
Live with Woolcotts, eighteen months, two years: most of the time I was at Dartford. About eighteen months to two years. (rent?) yes, of course.
Denis honk horn? No, it's not like him at all. Used to come up and knock on door.
2nd Dartford/Denis proposal? Remember how he did it? No, well yes, but … I'm not going to talk about these things. They're too personal
He a Methodist? No. He wasn't. No, of course he wasn't. He wasn't a Methodist. Their family comes from the church in Uffington . Church of England. For one moment I wondered, gosh, if one of his relatives … but not so far as I am aware.
Twins/eldest? Mark ThatcherMark. It was a caesarian section. We wanted simple names that couldn't be shortened. We didn't like nicknames very much. They were just names we both liked. Picked out in advance. I didn't know I was having twins until they were born. Princess Beatrice hospital.
More children? No. I was absolutely thrilled that I had a boy and a girl.
Worried about resuming your career? No it wasn't so much that I was worried about resuming my career though it might have looked that way. I was concerned, not so much worried, particularly with two, that I might be tempted to spend all my time on the household and looking after them. And not continue to read or use my mind or experience and that I might then somehow use only part of one's personality and I felt that I had been immensely privileged to have a University education, in those days if you were offered a place, it was just fantastic, these days they expect to be offered half a dozen. Really felt that … a wide interest, felt I must, really must use one's other faculties as well. I had started my legal exams as a barrister and therefore remember lying in bed in hospital and I had these two wee things. And they were small. And I thought I knew it would take a lot of time to look after them but I knew I would be lucky and have some help and I thought I simply must clinch this here and now. If I get home and get so absorbed in things I will always find an excuse for not doing it. I did clinch it. I got an entrance form to take the final exams to become a barrister that December. I knew if I had entered my name for the final that I would do so much work that I would pass because I simply wouldn't have the chance … so there was that conscious thing that I had just been immensely lucky, to have the University education, to have a chance early in politics - I was only twenty-three when I was adopted - and to have the chance to study law which I started to do before I was married, because I obviously couldn't turn around and take another qualification. No question of it in those days. [end p10] You had to earn your own living. And I had before children were born done the first part of my exams. And that is how I did it. Yes, it was very difficult. Had two children but let me make it very clear I had help. But even then when they were in bed, we were always both hard workers, we always both understood that we had as well as joint interests, we each had our own interests. Denis ThatcherHe was mad keen on sports, on rugby football. It's a very good way for you each to have certain things in common and yet each have your own interests. So yes, I used to stay up very late at night studying. And eventually I took those exams and got them. It was a kind of challenge. I was so fortunate. I was tremendously aware of all my Alfred Robertsfather and Beatrice Robertsmother - and I would say both - had done for me. That I really must use my other faculties as well as create a home. Because again, I was the first to realize that home is the center of your life. Denis was older, don't forget, over ten years older than me. It was absolutely right because I had always tended to find myself older than my contemporaries. The way I was brought up. One didn't go out and have fun, one was brought up to consider serious things. I'm sorry it's a long answer.
Father 99.5 per cent perfect the other. 5 per cent Warmer? Why so controlled? Because one's learned to control oneself. If you don't, if you let go one feeling, you might let go another. You have to be controlled when you answer things in the House. You have to be controlled when people say horrid things about you and you want to answer back. … Isn't that strange. Self-control is a thing we were taught. I don't think we were a very demonstrative family. Some people aren't outwardly very demonstrative that doesn't mean that the basis of family isn't there. It's very, very strong. It doesn't always need to have the outward signs of demonstration to show.
Your energy/ability to get things done? (tape malfunction)