John Dunn, BBC
Good evening, Prime Minister!
Prime Minister
Good evening!
John Dunn, BBC
In general, do you look forward to Christmas? [end p1]
Prime Minister
I love it! I love the Christmas tree, I love the decorations; above all, I think I love the Christmas carols - they are so beautiful and they just create the whole atmosphere of Christmas and remind one very vividly what it is all about in the loveliest possible way.
John Dunn, BBC
Do you find though that life immediately prior to Christmas gets so hectic that it almost overshadows the whole thing?
Prime Minister
No, I don't think it overshadows it. It is part of the excitement and you are worried whether you will get all your Christmas cards out, whether you will get all your presents, will you get them wrapped up in time - but somehow you do!
John Dunn, BBC
The red boxes though, do they pursue you down to Chequers? [end p2]
Prime Minister
Oh yes, of course, because politics does not stop although over Christmas it is astonishing, very few things seem to happen just over the Christmas period, except one year: it was my first year, as a matter of fact, at Chequers, when the Russians went into Afghanistan on Boxing Day and I remember then hearing about it, a sudden telephone call from the Jimmy CarterPresident of the United States and we had to start to fix up meetings. But apart from that, we have not been disturbed very much over Christmas Day and Boxing Day.
John Dunn, BBC
But nonetheless, you would always expect to have to work for a certain amount of the time on Christmas Day?
Prime Minister
Oh yes, because you take down a stack of papers with you, usually that require much slower reading because they are deeper ideas or ideas for the future and you put them aside and think: “Well I will do that over the Christmas Recess!” and then I have quite a number of books sent to me and I think “I will read those over the Christmas Recess!” so it is a time for deeper thinking and I do set aside quite a lot of time for that. [end p3]
John Dunn, BBC
Do you never in your whole life, do you never ever get a whole day which is completely to yourself, to lie about and do absolutely nothing if you want to or to read a book of your own choice?
Prime Minister
Well, you would not in fact, because you are never off duty and so automatically at the beginning of the day you touch base, as it were, and say: “Now! Has anything come in overnight? Is there anything we ought to do, any message we have to send, anything we ought to be thinking about?” So you automatically do that at the beginning of every day; listen to the early morning news and see if anything has happened that demands your attention or just a kind word, something like that, that ought to be sent.
John Dunn, BBC
But do you not want time to yourself? Would you fidget? Supposing you did suddenly find yourself with a whole day, would you fidget and do unnecessary jobs? [end p4]
Prime Minister
No. I should do a lot of necessary jobs, but I should not waste that whole day, you know. I should do something in it. It might be that we should go for a long walk; it might be that I should make a point of tackling some book; it might be that we should make a point of having some people in just to talk, because we love talking to friends - it is the greatest pleasure - or listen to some particular records or a particular video that we have not had time to look at. I think the worst thing to do with time is to waste it. And it may be that I would go and turn out the airing cupboard, that I would tidy up some drawers. I would get everything back where it ought to be and feel much better at the end of it! That is a very housewifely thing and I do that sometimes, because it gives me enormous pleasure - or get everything in the wardrobe right, and so on. But I would not waste it. Time is too precious to waste!
John Dunn, BBC
Talking of housewifely things, will you be cooking at Chequers over the Christmas period? [end p5]
Prime Minister
I am very lucky. At Chequers, we do not do the cooking. We do at No. 10, because we do not have anyone to help with the cooking, but at Chequers we are very lucky that it is done and it is done and presented absolutely beautifully.
But I used to do my own Christmas cooking, of course, and it takes a lot of time, you know. To prepare the Christmas meal takes a lot of time. You have to get ready for it very early and I used to love decorating the table. Years ago, when the children were small, we had a lovely Christmas centre arrangement given to us of a Father Christmas on a sleigh with four white reindeer, the sleigh with tinsel and red and the reindeer with nice bells and Father Christmas was driving a great big sleigh of chocolate. I have kept that year after year. I have had it over twenty years. And when we go back to having Christmas at home again, it will still come out and be the centre-piece, because it goes back to the children's young days.
Also, we were sent six snowmen. Instead of crackers, there used to be little snowmen and they used to have all the gifts in them that you would have in crackers and so you emptied them from the bottom and had those, and I have kept those, and three snowmen kind of guard the reindeer and the sleigh at each end. [end p6]
And so we really had a rather beautiful Christmas table. I used to have long red ribbons, one down the centre of the table and others across the table between each two people and it took quite a time to dress it, but it was worth it. It was the only time of the year when we had a table like that, and with candles as well.
John Dunn, BBC
Will the family be with you this year?
Prime Minister
Oh yes! We hope all the family will be with us. It is just that that makes Christmas - it really is - and we do not open our presents until quite late in the day. I think some families open them first thing in the morning, and when you are children you do, but later we do not.
It is really quite a busy day. We go to church service in the morning and the church is full, absolutely full, and people bring their children and it is lovely; and then we come home and we have a few friends in as well for Christmas lunch, and the atmosphere is marvellous.
We are very pleased with our Christmas tree this year. Last year, I thought we had not got enough lights on it, so we have added some more lights this year, two more sets of lights and it makes such a difference. [end p7]
John Dunn, BBC
Do you remember, going back to your own childhood days, was it the sort of heart-stopping excitement at the end of the Autumn term as you came up towards Christmas? Do you remember all that?
Prime Minister
I liked Christmas very much indeed. It is the longest term at school, but it is the term which has that great thing at the end to look forward to and, of course, it affects so much the month of December at school. I went to visit some schools the other day. It was just the same. They were singing Christmas carols; they had their decorations; they had made their Christmas cards; they had done their scenery; they had a nativity group.
But again, it is the Christmas carols I remember. We used to have a Carol Day at our school and we used to have rehearsals early in the morning. I suppose that was part of the attraction - you missed a lesson now and then - to go and rehearse the whole school in the assembly hall together for the carols from the Oxford Book of Carols, lovely ones, and we all sang them and everywhere, again, was decorated.
I always walked to and from school in those days, there were not so many cars, very good exercise for you - it was a mile to and from school. We used to go through the town and I never minded then that it was dark, because I remember the feeling: the shop windows bright with decoration, with cotton wool, with artificial snow. [end p8]
Yes, winter and Christmas have their own joys and delights of warmth and feeling and then, in those days, you would go home and you would have an open fire. We had an open fire burning coal. You do not do that these days, but it gave a marvellous atmosphere: you went from the cold, from the dark, into the light and you gathered round the fire and it was the warmth, and you might toast on the end of a toasting fork in front of the fire. It was such a marvellous atmosphere of family, of friendliness, of warmth, of togetherness and one has tried to give one's own children something of that, but I am not sure it is quite the same. Electric fires are not the same; gas fires are not the same. Oh dear, but we shall be getting into the greenhouse effect and log fires if we are not careful!
John Dunn, BBC
Did you take part in a nativity play when you were at school?
Prime Minister
Yes. Not so much a school nativity play. At our church, we had one very great nativity play, bigger than we had ever put on before, and it had parts for almost everyone. The stage was full. We were anxious that most people should have a part, so people who were not taking the main parts were among the crowds at Bethlehem [end p9] and my Alfred Robertsfather took part and was one of the shepherds. I was an angel. My Beatrice Robertsmother was a dressmaker and she was very good at making these things for plays and she made my father's things - a shepherd - and made a white dress for an angel, and then we had to make wings, which we did with wire and stretched muslin and silver over them and you see, I can just remember it, almost all, and it was so marvellous because the whole choir of the church was involved in it and of course we sang.
John Dunn, BBC
Were you in the choir?
Prime Minister
No, I was not myself in the choir. I used to play the piano for Sunday School, but I was not myself in the choir. But we all took part in singing all the oratorios and and other churches came and it was marvellous.
Do not forget, in those days you had to do things for yourself and you did get together. You got together with musical evenings, you got together for plays, you got together for discussions and for debates. We had to make far more of our own entertainment. It was not a spectator society at all - it was very much a doing society. [end p10]
I know what I should tell you! My Alfred Robertsfather was a very keen member of Rotary. As you know, Rotary's motto is Service Before Self and every Christmas we used to prepare a parcel for each old person who we knew would enjoy and need a parcel and we used to do them in our own shop. We used to pack them all up and, of course, everyone used to come in and help. It used to be done late in the evening. That too, it was the togetherness and the warmth, and we packed them up and we used to stack them and the shop looked marvellous with all of these parcels stacked and then we used to go out two days before Christmas delivering them. But you see, they were all doing things, they were all thinking of other people; they were “all together” things; they were Christmases about giving. You must give! And we learned this pleasure.
But it is not only just the giving - it is getting together to do the giving. You see it now. You will see Crisis At Christmas, the people will be doing the same thing. You will see the warmth. They are giving things, both to old people, to children, children's toys; they are giving things to the people in Armenia who had the terrible earthquake; they will be thinking of the families who suffered from our terrible train crash; and they will be thinking of a lot of people whom they know: children who are not having a happy Christmas and who will rely on good, kind, friendly, warm people who say: “I will just take something down to that home!” [end p11]
John Dunn, BBC
Do you remember the war-time though? Were you in Grantham during the War for Christmas ever?
Prime Minister
Yes. Again, I remember it very well, very well indeed, because what we had to do then was to see that always at our church any servicemen who came to church went home with a family afterwards - that was throughout the year - and you always tried to see that any servicemen you knew had a family to go to and always that there were some big canteens and restaurants open on Christmas Day and Boxing Day and there would be concert parties going on there.
John Dunn, BBC
Because there were many Americans weren't there, round about Grantham?
Prime Minister
Yes, quite a lot, but also, we had quite a lot of Air Force people around with us and I used to help in the Toc H canteen regularly, but it was constant thinking: “Will there be people who are far away from home and have nowhere to go and we must open up our homes to them?” [end p12]
My Alfred Robertsfather was, as you know, a very staunch churchman and he would never have agreed with games on Sunday or cinema on Sunday or anything like that, but in wartime I remember him saying very well: “It is more important that these young men who are doing so much for us have somewhere to go and therefore it is far better that we have the cinemas open on Sunday so they have somewhere to go and there can be coffee and things as well, sandwiches for them to eat, and far better that the parks are open and the tennis courts are open!” He was very mindful of - I suppose it is the old John Wesley thing: you cannot have faith without works and your works must take into account the needs of the times. It was just a very giving world.
Then, of course, you had far fewer things and it would have been wrong if you had more.
John Dunn, BBC
But what about meals? Do you remember Christmas dinner during the War? Was it possible to have a Christmas dinner?
Prime Minister
Yes, if you were able to get a chicken. Chicken was a great luxury in those days. If you were able to get a chicken then yes, or you saved up your meat, but you tried to have a very very good meal - you saved things for it. [end p13]
John Dunn, BBC
But having a shop, were you in a good position, shall we say, to get hold of things like that?
Prime Minister
No, no better than anyone else and you were very careful not to be better than anyone else, but I think most housewives when in 1938&en;39 things were getting a little bit ominous, has laid aside some tins, you know, for the long term, and you cherished those and used them very much only one at a time, so you might have had a tin of corned beef or a tin of spam, you might have a tin of fruit, because those were luxuries, but you knew how to spin out your other things and in way, you ate in a quite healthy way.
I remember the recipe for Lord Woolton's potato pie but, you see, an ounce of cheese made a pie for the whole family.
John Dunn, BBC
Do you remember it now?
Prime Minister
Oh yes!
John Dunn, BBC
Could you tell us … [end p14]
Prime Minister
My Beatrice Robertsmother was a very very good cook.
You did your pie in slices and just laid them in slices, and you put just a little bit of cheese …
John Dunn, BBC
Onto the potato is that?
Prime Minister
Yes, slices of potato in a pie dish, and you put just a little of cheese in between. Sometimes, if you had a little bit of horse-radish sauce it would give it just a little bit of extra flavour - not too much - but you just dipped it. Then perhaps you would make just a tiny little bit of sauce and put it in between layers of potato and then you saved your main cheese for grating on the top and that whole thing went in the oven. It was, in fact, easier to cook your potatoes first and then slice them.
John Dunn, BBC
Wonderful!
Prime Minister
And so you got it nice and brown and crisp on top and then, as many green vegetables as you could hold of. It was a very nutritious meal. [end p15]
John Dunn, BBC
Do you keep in touch still, Prime Minister, with the people from those days? Do you still exchange Christmas cards every year?
Prime Minister
We still exchange Christmas cards from a very long time ago, out fewer and fewer, because you lose contact with people. You see, that was the 1940s. We still have some exchanges and just a few days ago the Rotary Club of Grantham came to see me in No. 10 Downing Street. They very kindly gave me an award for what we had tried to do internationally - the Phil Harris Award - which I was so proud to receive, because so much internationally and so much giving I got from my father and mother.
We never had a bake in our house, my Beatrice Robertsmother used to help in the shop. We baked on Sunday morning very early - that was the only time when my mother could do it, she got up early and we baked early on Thursday morning. Every bake for the week we had, there was always either a loaf of home-made bread or cakes. She said: “Take them to someone!” always.
They were wholesome, friendly, warm days. We did not have so many material things. When you do not have so much, you value everything more. [end p16]
But I was telling you about Rotary. They came here. I was delighted to receive them and delighted that they could come in and see our Christmas trees at No. 10, and they reminded me of the days when my father, who was a founder member of Rotary, and of everything that he did and yes, that continued throughout the war.
John Dunn, BBC
But schoolfriends, do you get still Christmas cards from them as well?
Prime Minister
From old schoolfriends? I think very much of one. Yes, one that I keep very much in touch with still, but not very many otherwise, although you will have messages from them. You will arrive in a town - in Singapore, in New York, in Kuala Lumpur, in Sydney - you will get a message from someone; “Hello! This is So-and-So. We were at school together!” You know, it happens the world over.
John Dunn, BBC
The Christmas message of peace on earth and goodwill towards men I imagine has almost never been more relevant than it has been this year, with Mr. Gorbachev making his arms reduction speech and the Armenian disaster to which people have rallied round so splendidly? [end p17]
Prime Minister
It really does show the Christmas message, doesn't it, because it gives very much more hope and the interesting thing was that the barriers came down and it was mankind that mattered more and so the warmth with which people sent things to Armenia - not only government help but all the other things that came in - and the response to the terrible train crash and the marvellous way in which all our emergency services responded. It was not only Mr. Gorbachev's arms reduction speech; it is a whole new attitude and new approach which offers the real hope. It is from that new approach that other things will flow.
When he said, “Look! Freedom of choice!” that is very important. When he said that you must have established in law the rights of people and a proper rule of law; when he said: “We must give more attention to personal initiative and personal responsibility!”. For the first time, it seems as if that system is beginning to value individual people and not say the Marxist system is what matters. It is saying: “Look! It is the people who count!” It is that which gives enormous hope, so yes, there are greater hopes of peace. There is far more goodwill. It is good to be living in these times!
John Dunn, BBC
So what would be the one thing that you could wish to happen in 1989, shall we say? The one sort of Christmas present that you might like to have given this year? [end p18]
Prime Minister
Both to continue with the work that has been done this year and I would just very much wish that because other things are going better - not only East-West but the problems in Angola, two of them being solved - more help to people like Mozambique, more help to Ethiopia, Sudan, etc., but there really are two things - there are three really - on which we would like to see both initiatives and progress:
We think especially of Bethlehem this year. We really would like to get peace talks going on the Arab-Israel problem. That really seems to me to be very important in the first year of a new Presidency in the United States. Some steps have been made - I hope we can really get something going and will think very much of that as we think of the song “Oh Little Town of Bethlehem”.
And we would like to see some forward movement in South Africa to start to dismantle apartheid there.
And the third great trouble spot is, of course, Cambodia with Vietnam still in there. I think that there is an atmosphere of feeling now that now is the time to make progress on all of those things towards a genuine peace on earth, goodwill towards men.
John Dunn, BBC
And may we wish you a Very Happy Christmas and incidentally - you mentioned your fondness for carols - do you have a favourite carol perhaps we could play you? [end p19]
Prime Minister
I love the hymn “It came upon a midnight clear, that glorious song of old. Of angels bending their ears to touch their harps of gold. Peace on the earth, goodwill to men from Heaven's all gracious King. The world in solemn stillness lay to hear the angels sing!”
John Dunn, BBC
Prime Minister, thank you!
Prime Minister
Thank you!