Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
Mrs. Thatcher, I know that you came here in 1981 for the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting, but this is the first official visit by a British Prime Minister to Australia since Harold Macmillan thirty years ago. Over that same period, Australian Prime Ministers have been wearing a weary path to and from London.
Now what does that say about the relationship?
Prime Minister
I quite agree that we have not been here enough in an official capacity. I came in 1979, very shortly after I had been elected, on my way back from the Tokyo Summit, because I thought Malcolm FraserMr. Fraser would like it if we came to see him and indicated what had been done there.
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
It was a very fleeting visit, wasn't it? [end p1]
Prime Minister
1979 was quite fleeting, but 1981 was quite a long time, because the Commonwealth Conference went on for a long time.
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
Why has the relationship been like that for thirty years? Why has it fallen relatively into &dubellip;
Prime Minister
I don't know, but I think the important thing is that I accepted the invitation to come. I am here. I am enjoying it enormously, and I am here to try to make good what has not been done in the past.
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
Do you believe that relations between Australia and the United Kingdom and Australia within the Commonwealth would really be any different at all if Australia became a republic?
Prime Minister
That is for Australia to decide. It is not for me to have any influence upon it. It is a matter for the Prime Minister and people of Australia. [end p2]
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
It is a matter for Australia to decide that but, I mean, this really is a quite innocent question and answer really.
On the evidence that you have of other republics within the Commonwealth, do you believe that there would be any difference in our relationship?
Prime Minister
It is not a matter for me and you are trying to provoke me into saying something and you will not succeed!
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
You have faced three elections in your time. You faced two as Prime Minister in ten years - nearly ten years. Bob Hawke has faced two elections, as Prime Minister, in five years.
Do you believe that that kind of time span is enough for a government to effectively implement a programme of reform?
Prime Minister
I don't know about Australia. You are used to only three years between elections.
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
In fact, the average in Australia was two years and three months over the last forty years. [end p3]
Prime Minister
We are used to five, but we have taken them at shorter intervals and I have taken mine at four-year intervals because that happened to be convenient and I felt it best to renew the mandate.
Certainly, when you were really changing course as we were in 1979, one certainly needed quite a time to make it clear that the changed course was far better and to go on to much greater success and much greater increased prosperity and much greatly increased influence abroad.
For me, it has needed at least three terms.
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
And you have basically found that a four-year term is a minimum requirement in your experience for what you have wanted to achieve?
Prime Minister
I have found it a good period. I think there are some times when one would wish to go on a little bit longer. It depends where you are in your legislative programme. Sometimes, it is convenient to finish the session before you go to an election.
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
You said, when you became Prime Minister, that you wanted to change the soul of Britain. What did you mean by that? [end p4]
Prime Minister
We had to change all of the attitudes. It was not only a question of changing the economics. To change the economics, you had to change the attitudes.
We really were far too despairing, far too under-achieving. We really were the Sick Man of Europe - we were called that - and people had said; “Oh well! We cannot do certain things! We cannot have trade union reform! We cannot do without controls! We cannot privatise!”, all kinds of things, and really, people were depending far too much on Government. They knew it did not work and so we had once again to go back to the fundamentals of the British character; self-reliance, initiative, personal responsibility, incentive to hard work; changing the trade union law to get a proper balance and to give the trade unions, really, back to their members. And so we went right back to the first principles and that succeeded.
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
In the process you, to an extent, changed the face of Britain. Your achievements have been recognised, but you have got a situation now where you have virtually got a North-South situation; you have got a situation of extreme poverty in the North, of high unemployment; you have got the “haves” in the South and the “have-nots” in the North, in effect. [end p5]
Prime Minister
Nonsense! Absolute nonsense!
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
Very high rate of unemployment in the North compared to the South?
Prime Minister
The third-highest average earnings in the United Kingdom.
First is London, second is the South-East, the third is Scotland. Prosperity is spreading all over the United Kingdom.
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
The North of England?
Prime Minister
Unemployment has been falling all over the United Kingdom. New jobs are being created all over the United Kingdom.
Certainly, it came more slowly in the North. It came in the South first, spread to the Midlands, it has now spread to the North-West and the North-East.
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
What do you regard as the cost that you have paid for your reforms? [end p6]
Prime Minister
One moment! You told me something quite wrong!
Prosperity is spreading all up the United Kingdom and unemployment is falling also in Northern Ireland as well.
The cost of my reforms? I am not quite sure what you mean, the cost.
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
What social cost?
Prime Minister
The cost was to change the attitude.
The social cost? Let me say that by concentrating on policies which created wealth we have been able to spend far more on the social services than ever has been spent in our history before, because when you concentrate on creating wealth you get not only a higher standard of living at home, but you have left over more to spend on the social services - and we have!
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
Do you reject that there has been a greater distribution of wealth to the rich or the richer and away from the poorer? [end p7]
Prime Minister
There has been an increase of income throughout all income levels. We had a survey comparatively recently which showed that the incomes of the lowest tenth had gone up more than average.
Now, what some people seem to want - and it is something which I find appalling - is that they would rather there were a smaller gap between those who are at the top and those whose incomes are lowest; they would rather there was a smaller gap than that the gap were larger, but the the bottom people were much better off. I find it absolutely appalling that people should say they would rather the poor were poorer provided the rich were poorer too!
As it is, we have increased wealth throughout all income groups and it has been increased more than average for the bottom income group and that is because we have said: “Whatever your talent or ability, we want to bring it out!” and that seems to me to give a very much better deal to those who, unfortunately, are in the bottom tenth than any other policy.
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
What similarities do you see between “Thatcherism” and the policies of the Hawke Government in Australia? [end p8]
Prime Minister
It is not for me to say. I practise the policies, really, of Adam Smith - much older than Thatcher, much more fundamental - the professor first to write how to create the wealth of nations. He knew human nature. He believed in working with the grain of human nature. He believed in giving incentives to human nature to work harder. That is what succeeds!
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
It would seem, on the surface at least, inflation in Australia is coming down - yours had come down dramatically, it is now on the way back up; our deficit has been transformed into a surplus - your deficit is increasing.
Do you regard “Thatcherism” in that regard to be more successful than the policies in Australia, where the Government has said, at least, that it is trying to implement harsh policies while cushioning the people?
Prime Minister
The rate of inflation in Britain is 4.6&pcnt; a good deal lower than that in Australia.
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
But up rather a lot! [end p9]
Prime Minister
Not as low as I would wish. I should be very surprised if it got up to about 7&pcnt;. The lowest inflation rate achieved by a socialist government was 7.4&pcnt; for one month. Ours has been down to round about 4&pcnt; for quite a long time.
With regard to what you call a “deficit”, may I make it quite clear that we have a budget surplus. We have been reducing our borrowing for a very long time.
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
That has been largely achieved through selling assets, has it not?
Prime Minister
No! We have a budget surplus, and this year, therefore, we shall be redeeming national debt. It will be quite a considerable surplus.
What we have at the moment is a trade deficit - we have gone into trade deficit this year. There was a very small one last year. We have very very high investment in manufacturing industry at the moment and we have very very high investment in construction - something like ten-and-a-half percent more than last year. A period of high investment in industry of all kinds is a mark of confidence. It will not go on for ever, but it will produce increased goods and we hope that the steps we have taken will both reduce inflation and reduce the trade deficit, but we have a budget surplus. [end p10]
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
With what time is left, I would like to turn to South Africa.
You appeared to duck the question of what time-table you saw for the phasing-out of apartheid in South Africa when you were asked in the Press Club yesterday.
Where do you draw your confidence that there is a time-table to end apartheid according to your formula?
Prime Minister
Why do you say a “time-table”?
I cannot tell you a time-table and neither can you and neither can anyone, and I do not set out to answer the impossible.
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
But do you see substantial change in terms of five years, ten years, twenty years? I mean, surely you must take those things into account?
Prime Minister
Apartheid, which I loathe as a system, will end in South Africa, but I think …
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
How much time do you have to end it? [end p11]
Prime Minister
I don't know how much time - and neither do you and neither does anyone!
There have been enormous improvements both in the standard of living of the black people because South Africa runs the best economy in Africa &dubellip;
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
What is your answer then &dubellip;
Prime Minister
Would you please let me have an answer!
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
It is simply that we have very little time left and there were two more points I wanted to cover.
Prime Minister
Yes, indeed! Therefore, perhaps I should really like to give you the answer.
There have been a tremendous number of changes in South Africa - nothing like yet enough - and we wish that there would be more; we wish the Group Areas Act would go, we wish that Nelson Mandela would be released. [end p12]
Our whole purpose is to get a dialogue started in return for suspension of violence. I believe that that dialogue will one day start. I cannot tell you when it will. I know that there are problems with an extreme group in South Africa who want apartheid to continue which are causing troubles, but I believe that the over-whelming majority of white people in South Africa, as well as those of other colours, are ready for change and want it.
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
But with respect, Mrs. Thatcher - if I can just break in there - with respect, what do you say to Mr. Hawke and a number of other leaders within the Commonwealth - black leaders too - who say that the time is running out and that the major risk now is that the moderate black leaders - black African leaders - may well be swept aside by a newer radical generation and that the prospect of peaceful change will just evaporate?
Prime Minister
I spoke to Chief Buthelezi.
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
How representative is he of black Africa? [end p13]
Prime Minister
Chief Buthelezi is the Chief of the Zulus who are the biggest nation in Southern Africa - by far the biggest nation in Southern Africa.
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
He has nothing like the popular support of Mandela, Tambo or Tutu!
Prime Minister
The ANC operate outside South Africa - the Zulus and Chief Buthelezi and Chief M'Buza are inside South Africa.
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
But the acknowledged support …
Prime Minister
… and my reply, if you will let me have it …
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
Sorry! [end p14]
Prime Minister
… is quite simple. It is this:
I hate apartheid as much as other people, but there is nothing in sanctions that will improve the situation - it will make it worse.
Whatever makes people who put the questions that you do think that by adding starvation of black families, of black children …
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
But there is already starvation!
Prime Minister
&dubellip; and poverty &dubellip;
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
There is already poverty!
Prime Minister
There is some poverty and “Operation Hunger”, in which we have a good part to play, and some of the help we give, relieves it.
You want to take the small amount, the poverty that there is, the starvation, and add to it. [end p15]
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
“The small amount of poverty” did you say?
Prime Minister
&dubellip; enormously!
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
Sorry! Did you say there was a small amount of poverty?
Prime Minister
Comparative to what you would have with sanctions.
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
But the black leaders who are the more representative black African leaders, say that they would prefer the hardship that would come with economic sanctions to the hardship and the indignities that they suffer under apartheid.
Prime Minister
Black leaders who are outside South Africa sometimes say that and so does Bishop Tutu.
It is not, Chief Buthelezi tells me and Chief M'Buza - those who live in South Africa - it is not the wish of the black people, and of course it is not! [end p16]
Would you like to say, sitting in a nice comfortable hotel: “All right! We will impose poverty and starvation on them!” because I do not think there is anything compassionate or decent or honourable in such a view.
South Africa has the highest standard of living throughout the whole of Africa. Many people - three million - from the Front-Line States go to South Africa to work, to send their remittances home.
The people who want Britain to put on sanctions do not put on sanctions themselves, because they know the devastating effect it would have on the black South African people and they knew the devastating effect it would have on the economies of the Front-Line States and the economies of those people there and I cannot …
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
And an effect on the British economy!
Prime Minister
&dubellip; and I cannot see, for the life of me, how any decent, honourable person thinks that by sitting in a comfortable country and saying: “We condemn millions of people to starvation and poverty!” that that will help the situation at all. It will not! [end p17]
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
We are getting a very savage wind-up from your own staff, Mrs. Thatcher. We are out of time, but there is one last very quick question.
Prime Minister
No, I am sorry! You are out of time!
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
You are sixty-two years of age …
Prime Minister
I had promised someone else an interview, so I will go to it!
Thank you very much!
Kerry O'Brien, Channel 10
Thank you, Mrs. Thatcher, for talking with “Page 1”.