Joseph Finkelstone, Jewish Chronicle
Prime Minister, may I start by asking you for your comments on the disturbances on the West Bank and Gaza and whether you think that the Israelis are using too much force—as is being said in various quarters—and should adopt, in your view, some new tactics?
Prime Minister
I think the disturbances are grave indeed and we are obviously very worried about them.
I think it is up to both sides now to use restraint, otherwise lives are going to be lost, which I am sure neither side wishes to happen.
It underlines what we have been saying for a long time: that where there is a grievance—and the Palestinians have a grievance—then one has to do everything possible to get negotiations going to deal with that grievance.
We feel very strongly that there was a chance—and still is a chance—against the background of an international conference—the framework of an international conference—to get bilateral [end p1] negotiations going between King Hussein of Jordan and a team of Palestinians who reject the use of force, together with the Israelis, on bilateral negotiations.
As you know, we have struggled to get that going and I am constantly trying to encourage the United States too to approve such a thing and to try to get it going, and I hope that these tragedies that are now happening will heighten the awareness of people that negotiations are vital. In the meantime, I think restraint on all sides; it is vital not to use excessive force under these circumstance. I understand that order has to be kept, but it is vital not to use excessive force.
Joseph Finkelstone, Jewish Chronicle
Following on your remarks, one immediate decision could be what Mr. Peres has said—whom you have met a number of times—stop the building of settlements in Gaza particularly and even to think of demilitarizing the whole Gaza area, which he actually suggested.
Prime Minister
Look! I think to build settlements is the wrong thing to do … and if the situation happened to be reversed, as you know, the Israeli people would not like it if that were done. They would not; and you know, what you do not like yourself you must not do to others.
Demilitarise? I would not venture an opinion upon that. I think the judgement has to be taken not by me, especially under present circumstances. [end p2]
Joseph Finkelstone, Jewish Chronicle
After your meeting with Mr. Gorbachev and with Mr. Shultz, is there any prospect of a real movement in the Arab-Israeli conflict, such as an international conference, which you have mentioned, Prime Minister, before the presidential election in the United States in 1988? Do you see any prospects or hopes at all?
Prime Minister
It has always been my hope that some time during this year we would have been able to get those negotiations going and I have struggled to do that. I think the chances of getting them going before the presidential election are not great, but they may have been improved because events now may make people realise that where there is a grievance strenuous efforts must be made by negotiation to sort out that grievance.
I always think it is a tragedy that negotiations have not been got going earlier, because I never like violence to bring something about that would not otherwise have happened. That is what I am wanting to say.
Joseph Finkelstone, Jewish Chronicle
Violence is a means for …
Prime Minister
That is right. I never like violence to bring about something which would not otherwise have happened. I believe in [end p3] peaceful resistance and demonstration. You know, it was Gandhi in India who pursued this and if I might say so, you know, the Refuseniks in the Soviet Union have always had peaceful means of protest and, you know, both of those two things have been very powerful witness, as it were, to their cause and have in fact caused other people to speak very strongly for them and, indeed, I think in some ways they are more powerful than violence. You know I have been very tough on condemning violence wherever it occurs.
Joseph Finkelstone, Jewish Chronicle
Can you, without being sort of undiplomatic, which I am sure you are not, tell me something … .
Prime Minister
There are times when I am careful not to be … . go on!
Joseph Finkelstone, Jewish Chronicle
What is Mr. Gorbachev 's attitude to restarting relations with Israel?
Prime Minister
Again, I feel that if we had an international conference—a framework, say, of the five members of the Security Council, and I do think you need all the five, because otherwise there would be a tendency for it to be thought that one person—one big power—was on one side and one on the other and that would not do as a [end p4] framework to an international conference. I believe that Mr. Gorbachev would be for an international conference now of the five members—at any rate a good basis for the five permanent members of the Security Council. I think that is correct, yes, absolutely correct.
What I think is not possible would be for the United States and the Soviet Union alone, because as I say, it would be too much one on one side and one on the other. That could be an outward view and that would be wrong.
For the international conference, you need people like Britain, France, and China the other one to be an adequate framework. So it is not one on one side, one on the other; it is a framework for bilateral negotiations.
We cannot solve their problems, but they can! And our view has been that it would be the international nations saying: “We believe the time has come for the parties to get together to settle it and any bilateral negotiations they enter into have our goodwill and we place our authority behind the negotiations!”
Joseph Finkelstone, Jewish Chronicle
And you would agree that you cannot really have Russia take part in the negotiations?
Prime Minister
Let me make it quite clear! This is why I call it a “framework” . The five Security Members are not taking part in [end p5] the negotiations; they have not got a veto over what should happen. It is a framework within which those bilateral negotiations … but no veto and no direct part. No veto, no mediation. You cannot. Those five nations have different interests, but they could come together and say: “We think it is time for the parties themselves to settle this!”
I also think that if the five countries said: “We are all willing to go into an international framework conference on that basis” it would help the Soviet Union and Israel to resolve some of their differences and may indeed help to bring about not only more people who wish to come to Israel being able to do so, but could also help to bring about better conditions inside the Soviet Union for those who really wish to continue to live their lives there but wish to have the fundamental freedom of worship and to have the full facilities and the full paraphernalia that they used properly to worship in synagogue, the scrolls and other things which they need to worship.
Joseph Finkelstone, Jewish Chronicle
Did Mr. Gorbachev mention the possibility of him restarting diplomatic relations with Israel at any point?
Prime Minister
I did not discuss … I am more concerned when I talk with Mr. Gorbachev, to talk about the human rights—both people being able to leave worship with freedom of conscience within the Soviet Union. [end p6]
You must not think it is only a question of getting people out who want to come out. We believe so passionately in freedom of worship and freedom of speech and, of course, if they are fully allowed then … most Jewish people in the Soviet Union have spent their lives thee. It is their home. It has been their home for generations. They wish to go on living there. They add greatly, as Jewish people do in most countries in the world, to the sum of knowledge and skills of the country in which they live. They are talented people. Indeed, some of their talents are some of the things which have been instrumental in the Soviet Union refusing them permission to leave.
Joseph Finkelstone, Jewish Chronicle
Without entering the internal politics of Israel, you have already appealed to Mr. Shamir to show a more understanding attitude to the peace talks. Do you intend to continue this line, especially as I noticed when I was in Amman with you—with Sir Geoffrey Howe actually—that there is a kind of new attitude among many Arab countries led by the courageous, in my opinion, King Hussein?
Prime Minister
King Hussein is very courageous. We have constantly said we are fortunate to have such a courageous monarch and leader, and if he were not a monarch he would be a courageous leader. He happens [end p7] to be a courageous leader-monarch. Courage is his outstanding … and also wisdom, and the way in which the Arab Summit in Amman was conducted was most skilful, most diplomatic,and the results just right, and this is why, you know, in politics where you see very skilful, very wise, very courageous people, you say: “Please! Let us get things going, because we have the right person in the right place at the right time!” and it is such a pity not to use that great opportunity, and King Hussein has worked so very patiently and with goodwill for a long time for this—very patiently.
Joseph Finkelstone, Jewish Chronicle
Could you deal with the point about Mr. Shamir?
Prime Minister
I hope that Mr. Shamir will be willing to enter into negotiations. There are very very good reasons why the Government of Israel as such should wish to get this problem resolved—very good reasons.
The present situation, I feel sure they know, cannot go on indefinitely. It will soon give rise to other enormous problems for Israel. There is very great awareness of that and they must know that they have got to enter into negotiations and they must feel that the time time is getting very very near and I would think they feel that, whichever side of the coalition they are on. [end p8]
I would have thought that the Israeli people felt that very much. After all, it must be their dream to live in peace with secure borders. We all recognise that. Everyone wants security within their own borders and must make the necessary defensive dispositions to acquire that and one understands that, but it must be the dream of all people in that region. It would be a fantastic advantage to the world as a whole if that Arab-Israel problem could soon be solved. [end p9]
Prime Minister
The more so even as we have the other problem too in the Middle East.
Joseph Finkelstone, Jewish Chronicle
Yes, I will question that as well.
You mentioned another problem; what do you consider is now the Soviet role in the Iraq-Iran war after they failed to back up the United Nation's resolution for sanctions for which they actually voted and for which their Faadars (phon) actually have been very strongly criticised by Sir Geoffrey.
Prime Minister
It is very deeply disappointing but I hope we shall be able to go forward and have an arms embargo because I think it will look very bad if having waited this long, the authority of that resolution is flouted and no further action is taken. It is totally and utterly wrong to try to get a United Nations force in the Gulf. It would not be effective. It could not possibly be effective.
If you have an arms embargo, it is up to every nation to make strenuous efforts to see that none of its arms are sold either to Iran or in future to countries who might pass them on to Iran. In any case, arms go in by land and air and therefore it is up to each nation to do its level best to honour the embargo to which they have put their name.
Joseph Finkelstone, Jewish Chronicle
Thank you, Prime Minister. You have seen Chaim HerzogPresident Herzog who [end p10] is a very popular figure …
Prime Minister
Isn't he marvellous yes? He is always such a joy to sit and talk to. Absolutely marvellous.
Joseph Finkelstone, Jewish Chronicle
He is a friend of mine as well. He has spoken, Prime Minister, of the unique friendship between our two countries in which I may say you have contributed a great deal. This is how many people see it.
In order to strengthen even further our relationship, would you consider telling the British business community that the Arab boycott—which strangely enough still exists in this country of Israeli goods in various ways—is bad practice and should be resisted the same way as terrorism is resisted?
Prime Minister
We have done quite a bit about the Arab boycott as far as we are concerned. When I came here there was a great complaint by our community in Britain that the Foreign Office authenticated the documents and we stopped that. If the people only realised—you know to have a boycott actually strengthens the internal economy of a country. It does. One found that with Rhodesia.
Joseph Finkelstone, Jewish Chronicle
That's right.
Prime Minister
Those were sanctions and certainly we do not officially have anything to do with it. We do not like boycotts in trade, although, let's face it, there was a time when the Soviet Union went into [end p11] Afghanistan when certain action was taken to show that one thoroughly disapproved of that action. I can tell you what happened. As you know, wheat for a time was not supplied to the Soviet Union and various other countries filled the gap. You see unfortunately these things do not work.
Joseph Finkelstone, Jewish Chronicle
Prime Minister, you have had talks with Mr Gorbachev during which we know you have displayed your warm concern for Soviet … I am repeating something which is again very well known and for which we are very grateful—can you tell me how Mr Gorbachev explained the Soviet position in regard to this question and whether you think there is a real chance of a full scale of Jewish immigration or granting of Jewish rights—you know it works both ways—to Israel, although the small improvement that we have seen now is certainly very welcome.
Prime Minister
I entirely agree. The improvement that we have seen is welcome. Some very well known people and some lesser known people have been able to come out and the flow is very much bigger than it was and the view that I have always taken to that when that happens, one must express one's thanks and encourage further movement in the same direction. But it is nothing like up to the numbers during Mr Brezhnev 's period three years after the Helsinki Accords which is worrying some people, and the other thing is that as I have said earlier in the interview, human rights is not only whether people can leave the country to go to the country they wish to go to, it is also whether they have freedom of worship within. [end p12]
Now the Soviet Union, it is quite true takes a different approach to human rights from that which we take—and it is a fundamentally different approach from that of a true democracy like Israel and Britain. A democracy knows that human rights transcend Governments. They are rights which come from view to the Old Testament or the New Testament, belief in God or possibly something classical Greek, that there are certain fundamental rights of man. But they are bigger than Government. That is to say no Government can oust human rights in our belief.
Now one has to recognise that that is not the belief of countries whose whole system is not founded on either belief in God via the Old Testament or the New Testament or both or belief in the classic Greek rights of man. For those countries, they believe that the rights are the internal matter for Governments and so straight away you come up against this fundamental belief. And let us face it! Although human rights are part of the United Nations declaration in what I would call the Western democratic sense, the number of democracies in the United Nations and countries who believe in those human rights, is not, I believe, in the majority.
Human rights to us come from a fundamental religious belief that the state is for man and not man to serve the state but it is a very deep difference and so they do tend to regard these matters as internal matters.
Now the answer to that is, that even if you did regard them like that as part of your fundamental constitutional doctrine of Marxism Leninism, you actually signed the Helsinki agreement which undertook to enlarge human rights, the freedom of [end p13] movement of ideas and people and that gives those with whom you sign that agreement, a standing to ask how you are honouring that agreement. So you freely entered into an agreement which you signed and that gives us the standing to question about it and come and look and question ours if you like because what you demand of others you must be prepared to give yourself.
Joseph Finkelstone, Jewish Chronicle
Have you any optimism, Prime Minister, just to follow up what you are just saying, that there will be a major change apart from some people describe …
Prime Minister
In the Soviet Union?
Joseph Finkelstone, Jewish Chronicle
… welcome as it is, it is still very small numbers compared with as you have said, Mr Brezhnev 's time who was supposed to be closed?
Prime Minister
Yes, but as I say, if you are encouraging a country, you must recognise that they have acceded to a considerable number of requests, express your thanks for that, and constantly hope, and it is again keep up your efforts to get more going in the same direction because I often say to the Soviet Union, “If you really want to put up your standing and your humanity in the eyes of the world, it is so easy for you. All you have to do is to double, treble, quadruple the number of people who you let out if they wish to go and to increase the freedom within the Soviet Union” .
But do remember this, glasnost is increasing the freedom in [end p14] the Soviet Union, the freedom of speech, the freedom of ideas and that of itself is a great movement in the direction of the sum of human freedom and it is a very bold and courageous movement by Mr Gorbachev and his colleagues and I most earnestly hope that it will succeed. It is not easy to bring about, to have a major change of that proportion accompanied by much freer criticism. What happens is the difficulties and the criticism emerge first and the praise and the benefits come later but you have got to stick at it until you get through to the benefits and then the praise which will flow from them.
Joseph Finkelstone, Jewish Chronicle
Thank you, Prime Minister. May I just ask you, you have dealt very very courageously, if I may say so, with the human rights in the Soviet Union, there is also a similar problem of Syrian Jews who are unable to leave including quite a considerable number of Jewish girls who are not allowed to leave the country to get married. The Syrians are holding them hostages and there is also the similar situation of Ethiopian Jews who are not allowed to leave the country to go to Israel where they … . is there any chance of your taking up …
Prime Minister
The Soviet Union is not the only country that regards human rights as an internal matter although human rights is a fundamental part of a declaration of the United Nations so let us not just concentrate on one particular country, there are many countries—and let us face it—there are human rights that are not being observed in South Africa and also there are human rights that are [end p15] not being observed—you have just mentioned one other country—in other countries in Africa as well. Our task is always to enlarge those human rights and I do say this, and I say it advisedly, that freedom requires responsibility, and I say it again and again. Freedom is one side of the coin, the other side of it is willingness to exercise responsibility of your rights as a citizen, to your duties towards your fellow citizens and fellow men.
Joseph Finkelstone, Jewish Chronicle
May I just press you this point about the Syrian Jews?
Prime Minister
We have no diplomatic relations. I would say the same. We do not in this country understand why people who want to leave a country are held back and that is assuming they have committed no crime. That is totally different. It is very difficult for countries like us to understand that.
Joseph Finkelstone, Jewish Chronicle
But in regard to Ethiopian Jews there is a possibility that if the British Government, Western Governments did take an interest that some of these Falashi Jews might be able to go. Do you see any chance of that?
Prime Minister
We have been trying to have some influence on events in Ethiopia and those whom they will not let out and indeed those whom they keep in prison for a very long time.
Joseph Finkelstone, Jewish Chronicle
You have tried? [end p16]
Prime Minister
Yes, Ethiopia is a communist state.
Joseph Finkelstone, Jewish Chronicle
It is a marxist communist state.
Prime Minister
It is a marxist communist state and I was saying that there is a great enormous fundamental schism between the countries who have a fundamental belief in that human rights transcend greater than Governments and those who believe that these things come from Governments.
If you believe that Government can centrally control and plan everything then you make man the servant of the state and not the state the servant of man. We do not believe in that total central Government and control. We believe that we are answerable to the people who elected us.
Joseph Finkelstone, Jewish Chronicle
Thank you, Prime Minister. May I just switch my questions to something quite … There has been a lot of argument about the question of war criminals who are said to be living—a number of them are said to be living in this country. I know that Secretary of State. …
Prime Minister
I did not hear the beginning of the question. Who had been living in this country?
Joseph Finkelstone, Jewish Chronicle
It is alleged that a number of war criminals—Nazi war criminals—have managed to live, come to this country. [end p17]
Prime Minister
As you know, we have said, “Please give us the evidence and when the evidence is forthcoming, we are looking at our jurisdiction to deal with it” and Douglas Hurdthe Home Secretary has made statements about that. We have every wish that people against whom there is evidence should be brought to court, and people are not guilty by accusation but they are guilty when they are convicted by court and it is our every wish that people against whom there is a case should be brought to court and we are having a look, as you know, at the jurisdiction point because it conflicts with some of our own law and we may have to have a look at that law again.
Joseph Finkelstone, Jewish Chronicle
You are prepared to have a look at the law are you?
Prime Minister
Again, yes.
Joseph Finkelstone, Jewish Chronicle
Prime Minister, almost the last question. There is a great deal of misgivings and even agony at the specific kind of hatred which is propagated by a certain group of people who claim that the holocaust did not actually exist and they come out—strange as it may seem—and this is published openly in this country—suggesting that the whole thing is hoax and apparently there is, questions have been asked and the answer has been given that there is nothing, British law as it is at the moment cannot deal with such a kind of insult …
Prime Minister
Look, you would not deal with that by trying to suppress [end p18] those who wish propogate that view. You deal with that by the overwhelming evidence and witness of people who suffered and I think people who write that kind of thing receive on the whole the contempt that their viewpoint deserves.
It is utterly astonishing that anyone should ever write it! What they are trying to do in my view is to say a lie and then hope by repeating it, that it will get some credence. But it is not the evidence of the world but if you attempted to suppress it I think you would be doing harm to your own cause. Goodness me, what about the ghettos in Poland? Good heavens! As one Western viewer after another went to look at the concentration camps. You would not deal with it by suppressing it at all.
Joseph Finkelstone, Jewish Chronicle
The question of group libel which this country has not really been settled one way or the other, that you can actually libel a group rather than a number of people.
Prime Minister
Does anyone have group libel? It is not a concept I … . no. But to that, look you have only to go to your memorial, you living people who still remember. Yes, you have got it set out in Yad Vashem and the speed—I will never forget when they told me had the war gone on another year—they could almost have achieved their objective of extinguishing all Jewish people in Western Europe.
Joseph Finkelstone, Jewish Chronicle
Thank you, Prime Minister. May I perhaps ask you in a more cheerful, as we are approaching Christmas perhaps, how do you see the New Year? Do you see the New Year as a hopeful one? [end p19]
Prime Minister
Optimistic yes, optimistic. I think there have been great advances made in this year in first the understanding that the world is really of itself now a kind of global village. We all know, we know what is going on in the four corners of the world sometimes more than what is going on in the next street, you see because you will see it in our own sitting rooms.
Although, as you point out, the difference in approach between the communist countries and the democracies is enormous because we have just been talking about it, that both now have come to an understanding that though we disagree on these things, there are certain things which is in our vital interest of their peoples who are just as much human beings and God's creatures as ours, and ours, and the realisation that we can negotiate and get armaments down together, still keeping the security of our defence and the realisation that that is not the limits of the relationship, that there are improvements in human rights going on, there is a new movement to glasnost and perestroika in the Soviet Union, that we are getting more trade, that we are prepared to act together in some of the great questions of the world, that the leaders of the world—although they may have different views have some respect for one another and for the negotiating duties and capacity of one another and understand—you know results come from tough negotiations—they do not come from easy ones—results come from tough negotiations.
People who enter into negotiations realising that it is in their interest to resolve a situation. [end p20]
Now it started in East-West and I hope this will be the year when it restarts with Arab-Israel. I would like us to go further on the Security Council resolution on Iran-Iraq. It is astonishing that that war has gone on longer than World War II. It makes you sit up when you say things like that.
So yes, this realism and tough negotiations is good and the atmosphere in which they are being conducted is good, it is encouraging. It is mutual respect, you have mutual respect for someone who holds different views but you negotiate with them.