Peter Murphy, IRN
Prime Minister, if I can ask you first of all, what do you regard as the main achievement of this trip?
Prime Minister
Oh, I think many things.
First, I think Mr. Gorbachev and I have a much better understanding of one another's views after seven hours of direct talks and then two further hours over dinner, because we ranged very widely indeed over regional conflicts in the world, over the difference in our political systems, over the changes he is trying to bring about inside the Soviet Union and on arms control agreements. That of course is paramount in my mind.
But the second thing is the warmth and friendliness of the Russian people and the way in which they have come out in the streets to see one, and that has really been absolutely marvellous. [end p1]
Peter Murphy, IRN
Were you surprised by that reception?
Prime Minister
Yes, I was. I was. I did not realise that so many people knew the visit was on or knew one was coming or would come out and demonstrate. They would suddenly break into applause and wave and when I went round a housing estate they were all out and were so genuinely pleased to see one, which is absolutely marvellous.
Peter Murphy, IRN
You talked of money and investment in the bank after your talks yesterday with Mikhail Gorbachev.
How soon will it pay off?
Prime Minister
Talk like that is quite fundamental. It is your sort of political capital, if I might put it that way, because if ever there are any problems you know the person, you can get on the telephone and get a message there quickly. You have much more idea of what their reactions will be and therefore you can prepare for international occasions much better, and we signed a number of agreements on trade and on cultural agreements and on an improved hot line and on more visits from the Soviet Union to us and from us to the Soviet Union. [end p2]
Peter Murphy, IRN
After your seven hours of talks though, you still both made very firm and forthright speeches. It might surprise many people that you pulled no punches and there are still so many differences between you.
Prime Minister
Why should it surprise people? Good Heavens, a system which has communism written into its constitution and which permits nothing else is bound to be very different from ours, but after all, they have made an enormous stride in realising that the system up to now has not produced the standard of living or the kind of society which they wish to accomplish and they are having the courage to change it.
It will not bring about a western society system. One must not expect that. And therefore there will continue to be enormous differences and I think that unless people realise that they will not really get to grips with the problem.
Peter Murphy, IRN
On the way over here, you linked human rights and arms control.
Did Mr. Gorbachev accept that linkage? [end p3]
Prime Minister
When we talk about human rights, people here are very very sensitive because they say: “You are not entitled to interfere in our internal affairs!” and we say: “Look! We are not interfering in your internal affairs. You voluntarily entered into an agreement at Helsinki which involved the freer movement of people and ideas. You entered into that agreement and how you honour that agreement will be a way in which we can judge how you will honour other agreements!” and in a way, some human rights go way beyond the boundaries of countries. They belong to all mankind.
And so yes, one does talk about it. It is not always easy, but they have in fact released a number of people, which is welcome, but there are a lot more to release and of course there are a good many more freedoms which people would like to have here, which we enjoy as of right.
Peter Murphy, IRN
You saw Dr. Sakharov at lunchtime. Did you find out more about the changes as affecting the dissidents at the moment?
Prime Minister
Andrei SakharovHe obviously is very pleased with the changes that have come about. Like most other people who have been released from their exile—his was in Gorki— [end p4] and from the constraints put upon them, he is worried about those who are still in prison or in psychiatric hospital wrongly and says: “Yes, of course, there is a lot more to do!” and we know that, but the encouraging thing is that the Soviet Union has made a start and I am assured that they will look at individual cases carefully, trying to achieve a positive result.
Peter Murphy, IRN
Finally, on the day that the crowds turned out in Zagorsk and just outside Moscow to see you, it was suggested back in Britain that it was all an election stunt.
How do you react to that sort of charge?
Prime Minister
Of course that is absolute stuff and nonsense. I would have come here whatever stage it had been between an election because it is important for Britain, it is important for the Western Alliance, it is important for arms control. That is why I am here.
Second part of interview begins: [end p5]Peter Murphy, IRN
Mrs. Thatcher, how hopeful are you for an agreement to limit arms?
Prime Minister
I think there is a good chance of getting an agreement to limit the intermediate nuclear forces. As you know, it is going to be zero-zero in Europe, but unfortunately not zero-zero globally. I would have much preferred that, but I think it is only zero-zero in Europe that we shall get and we have not yet quite decided how to deal with the shorter-range missiles which are very very important.
Peter Murphy, IRN
You mentioned in your talks with Mr. Gorbachev the prospect of cutting conventional forces. How likely is that? [end p6]
Prime Minister
Well, of course, I raised it with Mikhail Gorbachevhim because again, they have such a preponderance of conventional forces and tanks and tactical aircraft and the more weight is put on conventional forces, the more we have to make certain that we have a balance, so I tackled him about it. He said, yes, he was willing to discuss it and I said: “not just on reductions because we start from where we both are which are very different levels, but we had got to talk about precise numbers—how many you have got which should be a fact which is ascertainable, how many we have got and getting much nearer to balance than we have got now!” and Mr. Gorbachev said he was willing to do that and I think that we shall therefore have some chance of starting the talks.
Peter Murphy, IRN
If you did get any deal on that, would that mean reducing the number of troops in the British Army of the Rhine?
Prime Minister
Oh no, no. The ones the Soviet Union has are greatly in excess of ours. It is absolutely vital for the defence of the West that British troops stay on the central front in Germany and also of course absolutely [end p7] vital that Americans stay on the front too; they have some 330,000.
Peter Murphy, IRN
Finally, you jokingly suggested in the House of Commons last week that while you were here you would see about a residence permit for Tony Benn. Did you succeed?
Prime Minister
I really did not think I could inflict Tony Bennhim on Mr. Gorbachev!