TV Interview for ITN (visiting Moscow)

Jon Snow, ITN

Prime Minister, you are here at an extraordinary time in Russia's development. You have seen two very different men on the same day, Andrei Sakharov and Mikhail Gorbachev. Is it difficult to bridge this particular gulf?

Prime Minister

It is not difficult, but it is very very different, but I have to remember that it was Mr. Gorbachev who brought about the release of Andrei Sakharov, with all the encouragement that means not only to Mr. and Mrs. Sakharov but to other people who would hope also to be released to follow their own way of life.

He is a most impressive person, Academician Sakharov. You would expect it in view of the enormous courage he has demonstrated over the years. I read the speeches that he had made in the Forum. He is still an [end p1] immensely thoughtful person and it is worthwhile having his views on the future.

We are all hoping, I think, that the reforms which Mr. Gorbachev has implemented will work and work well.

Jon Snow, ITN

Before you came here, you talked about the importance of trust and confidence if we were going to get arms control agreements with the Soviet Union.

How much more do you trust Mr. Gorbachev than you did before you came here?

Prime Minister

I think it is a question of building up trust over quite a long period. You cannot just go “snap” like that. You can break trust easily. It is much much longer and more difficult to build it up. And part of the trust that we would have on any arms control agreements would be how the Soviet Union in fact honours the Helsinki Accords, that is the human rights, and also what happens to Afghanistan, because we remember that they went in—and this was not a long time ago; it was 1979—so that broke the trust and it takes a long time to build it up again. [end p2]

Jon Snow, ITN

Well, you had seven hours of talks with him yesterday, you have seen him again today, you are having dinner with him. Is that beginning to develop some trust in your mind with him personally?

Prime Minister

It is not only the contact and the talks, the length of the time with Mikhail Gorbachevhim. I think it is what he is trying to do towards a more open society, releasing far more people, and having far more discussion and dispersing responsibility and incentive much more widely. That does build up trust, but it is not a matter from one day to another; it is a longer process than that.

Jon Snow, ITN

What have you learnt in your trip here about Russia and the Russians that perhaps changes anything you thought before?

Prime Minister

First, the standard of living is obviously higher than it was when I was here in the late Sixties.

Secondly, the people seem to know quite a lot about us and, as you know, they have been out giving a very very warm welcome, and that has been very reassuring and obviously very pleasant for those of [end p3] who are visiting this country, and everyone whom one meets is talking about the greater openness and is talking about the industrial reforms, because they now, instead of receiving all instructions, have a certain amount of latitude, within fairly closely defined limits, as to how they shall carry out their work.

Jon Snow, ITN

That warm welcome that you described, particularly last Sunday, in Zagorsk, some have described it almost as a sort of campaign trail welcome back home. Are you wounded by the criticism that this might be seen as electioneering?

Prime Minister

It is totally irrelevant. Those people who came out to see one did not know that there has to be an election in Britain in the next eighteen months. They came out spontaneously. Their welcome was spontaneous. What they said was spontaneous and it was very very deeply moving. Those were people who, in spite of everything, go to church and their belief was clear for everyone to see and how much it meant to them, and I think it undervalues those people to suggest there was any electioneering in it. [end p4]

Jon Snow, ITN

You are not the first leader to come here and say that we can make progress with the changes that are developing in the Soviet Union, but how do we move from your closer understanding of where they are at to tangible agreements?

Prime Minister

On arms control, I hope we will be able to move on the intermediate one by careful negotiation on the shorter-range missiles. It certainly should be possible within a year, depending upon the precise agreements, the precise verification. You have got to get the verification pretty strict because it is too important to make a mistake. Otherwise, you build up by much much more contact and that is why we signed various other agreements, a cultural agreement, more movement between here and the United Kingdom, particularly I hope with more schoolchildren visiting one another so that they can see how we live, because I think some of them have false impressions of life in our society and one has been trying to tell them about it. But that again: more movement of people and ideas, that is the way to build up trust and confidence.

Jon Snow, ITN

And with just one more day to go, what particular image do you think you will take away from the Soviet Union with you? [end p5]

Prime Minister

The image that this is a people at a turning point in their history, realising that what they have had seventy years after the Revolution is not good enough for what they hope to achieve; realising that changes are needed; and Mr. Gorbachev having the courage to identify those and to start on the road to change. It is not going to be easy, change never is. In some things, the most difficult things, results happen first and the better results later. It is having the courage to set out on that journey and keeping people with you while you continue through to the results you want to accomplish.