Speeches, etc.

Margaret Thatcher

TV Interview for Yorkshire TV Calendar

Document type: Speeches, interviews, etc.
Venue: Yorkshire Television, Kirkstall Road, Leeds
Source: Thatcher Archive: COI transcript
Journalist: Richard Whiteley, Yorkshire TV
Editorial comments: MT was due to arrive at the studio at 0730 and to depart at 0925.
Importance ranking: Major
Word count: 2712
Themes: Autobiographical comments, Autobiography (marriage & children), British Constitution (general discussions), Executive, Economic policy - theory and process, Employment, Industry, General Elections, Taxation, Family, Northern Ireland

Richard Whiteley, YTV

Mrs. Thatcher, let us say welcome to “Calendar” . The first Prime Minister to be in the studio for nearly ten years.

Now, up here every one talks about this phrase “the north-south divide” . Is that a phrase that you understand?

P.M.

It is a phrase that I hear very often. I think it over-simplifies things. You find areas of great prosperity in parts of the north and you find some areas of deprivation in parts of the south. The reasons are different.

Sometimes you find very old industries have dominated an area and when they go down of course they leave problems in their wake. In other areas, you will find they relied on one particular firm and that suddenly has not got so much business and you will get the same problems.

Richard Whiteley, YTV

You see, we have had a bit of a battering here. The unemployment rate at the moment is 13.8%;. Now admittedly, that is not the highest unemployment rate of any region in the country. [end p1]

P.M.

No, but it is high.

Richard Whiteley, YTV

It is high. The national rate is 11.9%;.

P.M.

That is also high.

Richard Whiteley, YTV

And in the south-east it is …

P.M.

Seven.

Richard Whiteley, YTV

8.5%; I heard yesterday. So that obviously is a case for some concern is it not?

P.M.

Of course. Every one is a case of great concern, but it is easier to talk about it than it is to create new jobs.

On the whole, governments do not create a lot of jobs except obviously they have to have universities, health services, a bureaucracy, of course they do, and the army and the police and so on. But in the end, the prosperity of a country is decided by the number of jobs that business creates. We rely on profitable [end p2] business for us to get the tax.

So the real thing for Government to do is to create the sort of climate in which business has confidence in the future, in which people of talent and ability will start up on their own and build up new businesses as the businesses of the past were built up. And that is now happening. That is the very good news.

Richard Whiteley, YTV

Yes, but talking to some businessmen in Bradford the other day, they said: “Yes, there are grants. To be fair, the Government is giving grants, but frankly, the bureaucracy involved is so involved and so long and so tortuous really” and their plea to you was can you do something just to make the whole system slightly easier?

P.M.

Well that is bad because, you know, we tried, particularly with small businesses, to cut the bureaucracy and to make it very much simpler. If they are saying that the bureaucracy is tortuous, then I must look into it, because our job is to help them and to help them quickly, and we will do as much as we can.

Richard Whiteley, YTV

There was a delegation from Doncaster and Bradford two days ago seeking increased Government cash for grants in their area. Doncaster has taken a bashing, people from British Rail Engineering being made redundant. Bradford, of course, has taken a real bashing with the decline of the textile trade. And the Minister who is, to [end p3] be fair, a Yorkshireman, Giles Shaw, said No, because it would upset the regional imbalance. He would not allow this. But in your view is there ever ever a special case, a case for a “special case” ?

P.M.

Well there are special grants under the Act. As you know, they can only go to assisted areas. You tend not to have special cases outside the assisted areas, because you have got to decide which are your worst regions and you put most of your cash into those to tempt outside companies to go there. If you then dilute it, you really are not helping the areas which are worst hit.

The two you mention, Doncaster, British Rail. You know, in a way, the difficulties there are because we have put so much investment into British Rail, particularly into the new sorts of carriages and engines, and they do not require the same amount of maintenance and it is ironic that investment helps one company but of course it does not make it easier for those whose duty was the maintenance of those carriages, and BREL is having difficulty because of that reason.

Bradford textiles. Now textiles. British textiles are making a very great comeback. Yes, they did go through a battering. They did have a bad time. They have poured in investment. They have poured in good design. They are doing much better, whether it is on the cottons or whether it is on the wools, and they should, because there are markets for textiles. There is money in textiles. There is success in textiles, and we are getting more of it. [end p4]

Richard Whiteley, YTV

There does seem to the feeling that the bits of industry that have remained are doing well—that what is left of the textile trade is doing very well. What is left of steel in Scunthorpe and Sheffield now is doing quite well. But it is the people who have been shed by the wayside—there are now over 300,000 people unemployed in Yorkshire and Humberside. What would you say to them?

P.M.

The basis for a prosperous country is prosperous industry and commerce. The ones which were overmanned, full of restrictive practices, the wrong atmosphere on the shop floor, I believe that is going or has gone. There is a much better atmosphere on the shop floor, a much better atmosphere for all those who work in industry. Much more attention to design, much more attention to efficiency, and we actually export more per head in this country than Japan does. So let us put the very very positive side.

Yes, during the rundown of some of the steel industries, because there is overproduction the world over, in coal and in some of the old industries that were overmanned, yes, there have been problems and how do you in fact try to meet the wishes, the hopes, of those people?

In exactly the same way in which the north became the most prosperous part of Britain, when there really was a north-south divide. The money, the wheels of industry, were in the north, because there were people who started up those businesses, and it is happening again. There are more small businesses. There are far [end p5] more self-employed. Those are the start. They are the seedcorn of the new prosperity. It is happening. Yes, it has taken a long time, and it is our job to try to encourage it, which is why when you say there is too much bureaucracy I must look at it.

Richard Whiteley, YTV

All right. I tell you another thing that worries people up here, and that is they wonder if the voice of the north is heard loud enough in the corridors of powers, in your own office, among the Civil Service, because out of eighty odd Government jobs, there are only three of our MPs who have a job in the Government. Your own PPS of course, Michael Alison, is a Yorkshire MP, so that is four. We have lost two Cabinet Ministers—Leon Brittan and Sir Keith Joseph—so we just wonder who is batting for us now?

P.M.

Well many of us bat for the north. Willie Whitelaw always bats for the north. I tend to be very much for the north-east and north-west because I am very conscious that we have in Cabinet someone representing Scotland, someone representing Wales and therefore a number of us consciously bat for the north as a kind of a counterweight. We also bat for Scotland, we also bat for Wales, but we like to have a fair deal for them all.

You know, both Leon BrittanLeon and Keith Joseph were a great loss. One day, this country will know how much it owes to Keith Joseph, who [end p6] really was one of our greatest people.

Question

Let us look at Great Britain Limited. We seem to have some good news this week; almost earning more money than we are spending. What are people watching tonight, what are we to make of all this? When we look at the budget are we going to have a budget that will please most people do you think?

P.M.

I do not know. It is not necessarily the job to set out to be popular. It has been our task to have some budgets and that is why industry is recovering, that is why inflation is down, that is why we have managed to have a growth six years in succession which has given us the kind of coveted threesome, which is cuts in income tax and cutting down borrowing, also spending more on social services.

Richard Whiteley, YTV

Are you going to get down to your coveted 25p in the pound income tax?

P.M.

Eventually we hope to. Eventually, but I think it will be eventually. But you know, there is a lot of argument about whether you should spend more or whether you should cut income tax and some people seem to think there is a more moral case for more public expenditure. That is not so! The whole of our country is based on the family as a unit. The family is responsible for its own [end p7] people. There is no point in Government taking so much money out of their pockets that they are not left with enough to look after their own homes, their own children and help their own old folk. That is how you get a responsible society.

Richard Whiteley, YTV

So the Chancellor will be cutting income tax will he?

P.M.

You ask me what Nigel Lawsonthe Chancellor will be doing. I do not quite know yet. I do not quite know yet, but it is part of our belief that we do not take more of the people's money than is necessary to have good defence, good law, good social services and education. So often, you know, you say to me: “Look! There is quite a bit of money! Ought not the Government to spend more?” and when you say that you are not really asking the Government to spend more. What you are saying is to your neighbour: “Would you like to cough up more for Government to spend?” and many of them would not because many of them are paying far too much in tax already and we have to take that into account. [end p8]

Richard Whiteley, YTV

Two things people are talking about. Neil Kinnock said on Monday that if they do cut income tax by two pence or three pence, they are just buying votes. What do you say to that?

P.M.

Absolute nonsense. We have been cutting income tax for quite a long time. Our opponents put it up to 35 pence in the pound as the standard rate. They had tax on incomes which went right up on earned incomes to 83%;, 83 pence in the pound; tax on savings right up to 98 pence in the pound. We had to set about cutting these figures and if we had not, some of our top engineers and scientists would have gone.

Richard Whiteley, YTV

Will we be doubling VAT?

P.M.

Who in the world ever put that about? It is absolutely ridiculous. I saw the headlines in the press. I was absolutely amazed. Nonsense!

Richard Whiteley, YTV

Two weeks ago you were at Scarborough and you spoke to the Young Conservatives and you started off your speech by saying: [end p9] “This is not an election speech” and in the next forty-five minutes you proceeded to highlight the achievements of your Government; you poured scorn on the other two parties. Well, frankly, if that is not an election speech, when are we going to hear the first one?

P.M.

It is my job the whole time to set out our achievements. There are very many and that is why I do spend some time setting them out. I am very proud of them. Yes, there are still a lot of things to be done so we go on and talk about those. But then, it is also my job constantly to say why I think that an alternative policy would be bad for Britain. But I have been doing that for, Heaven knows, ten or eleven years now.

Richard Whiteley, YTV

You have also been in Leeds Market today walking around and meeting the people. That is the sort of thing you love to do at election time, so what do I deduce from that?

P.M.

It is the sort of thing I love to do the whole time. We do many many regional tours every year. I have been doing them consistently. I think I must have been in Yorkshire about three or four times recently, but why do you suddenly call it electioneering? I am doing it the whole time. [end p10]

Richard Whiteley, YTV

The talk with all the pundits is the decks are being cleared for an election; people on television today saying it is going to be election year; a lot of name-calling in the House of Commons yesterday. You know, there seems to be an election climate. Does everyone think that apart from you?

P.M.

You know full well that there has to be an election by June 1988 and so if you go on saying there is going to be an election then one day you will be right.

Richard Whiteley, YTV

Have you ruled out any thought of a coalition?

P.M.

I am asked this at every election. At every election I am asked this. It is the standard television commentator's question.

Richard Whiteley, YTV

It is more relevant now because there are now three parties.

P.M.

I do not think it is more relevant now. I believe that our country has been strong because it has not had coalition governments. When I see the argey-bargey they have to do after elections on the Continent for coalitions, because they have got so many parties that everything they have stood for during the [end p11] election they promptly have to compromise behind closed doors to try to put together some sort of government. That is not our way. I like to know where I am going. I like to make it absolutely clear what our policies are. People know that we are strong. They know the direction in which we are going and I believe most of them in their hearts believe it is right. The really good thing now is that we are not only getting more jobs, but we are getting a decrease in unemployment and that is very good.

Richard Whiteley, YTV

Well, just as we come to the end of this, two questions that are in the news today.

First, the result of the Irish general election. What is your opinion now of the leadership, especially in regard to the future of the Anglo-Irish Agreement which you negotiated with the previous Prime Minister.

P.M.

It is for them to decide who they want in their elections as their leader. When you sign an agreement, you do not sign it with a Government, you sign it with a country otherwise treaties would never last. You sign it with the country and therefore the Anglo-Irish agreement will continue. [end p12]

Richard Whiteley, YTV

The other talking point today is this bout of name-calling that has gone on in the House of Commons. Do you distance yourself from that?

P.M.

I have been the target of abuse almost ever since I have been Leader of the Party and even when I was Secretary of State for Education. I just sat and took it. I knew that some people conduct their politics that way. I have constantly gone on with policy matters. Constantly. That is what I believe politics is about and that is the way I shall continue.

Richard Whiteley, YTV

You are distancing yourself. You do not … any part of that.

And finally, very finally, one question I am sure all the mums would like to know. What is it like having another Mrs. Thatcher around?

P.M.

I am thrilled, absolutely thrilled. Of course, who would not be? I have two children and I just sometimes wondered if either of them was going to get married. I am delighted. Diane ThatcherShe is a lovely girl and not only lovely in looks; she is lovely in disposition, so another Mrs. Thatcher is a great joy to us both. [end p13]

Richard Whiteley, YTV

And how did she look on Saturday?

P.M.

She looked fabulous, absolutely fabulous. She looked so happy, and so was Mark Thatchermy son, and of course every mother feels marvellous.

Richard Whiteley, YTV

Mrs. Thatcher, thank you very much indeed for coming to talk to us today.

P.M.

Thank you.