Russell Harty
One of the most recognisable features of your prime ministership &dubellip; what is it &dubellip; prime ministerhood?
P.M.
I have no idea. Term of office.
Russell Harty, BBC
… term of office … are your pearls - almost a badge of office.
P.M.
Well yes. First, I love them. I think they are beautiful. They are gentle. They are not bright and sparkly, but they have a softness. I must tell you that at my age they lift the face, which helps very much.
But also, these have a special meaning. My Denis Thatcherhusband gave me these pearls, this double row of pearls, [end p1] when our twins were born in 1953. Obviously, everyone remembers it very well. I remember that afternoon. It was a day that we were winning back the Ashes and Denis was particularly interested in that - 1953. So I still wear them.
He gave me this bracelet also years later and I also wear that. It is lovely - The colours …
Russell Harty, BBC
Was that given for a special occasion?
P.M.
It was a gift for a birthday. It is lovely, the different colours, and I so often wear neutral things and so it is perfect.
These now; they just have a special meaning.
The children will not thank me for this but look, it is one of my favourite photographs. That was the twins before they were a year old - Mark ThatcherMark and Carol ThatcherCarol.
Russell Harty, BBC
My goodness me!
P.M.
Let us not &dubellip; before the camera for too long! I think it is taken in Grantham, because we had a marvellous amateur photographer there who took them. Let us put it away, because Mark and Carol will not like that at all! [end p2]
Russell Harty, BBC
Do they criticise you ever for things you do personally? Will they be annoyed about that picture?
P.M.
Well yes, I think so. I am afraid so. We should, shouldn't we? But it is so lovely and they realise. One day Mark is going to get married and I hope will have children of his own. It is only when you know you have children of your own that you realise the value of that kind of thing to your own parents.
Russell Harty, BBC
Now Denis is clearly, obviously, a hero for you, but you also have chosen a very strange historical hero. It took me by surprise, your choice.
P.M.
I chose Michael Faraday, why?
First, I have a fantastic admiration for him. This man who did so much in the discovery of electricity and magnetism and the relationship. A remarkable person, typical of so many of our great people. Very ordinary background. Father ran a smithy; son had virtually no education. This, after all, was the late 18th, beginning of the 19th century. Went to the very small local school. Very rudimentary education. [end p3]
But he was brilliant and he did not go to university. He was apprenticed to a printer and as he printed, so he began to read the work he was printing and his master printed scientific work and he became totally fascinated by it and learned more and more and got into contact with scientists to learn.
And then, Sir Humphrey Davy fell ill and wanted someone to help him to read and do things for him and so Faraday went and Sir Humphrey Davy, then himself a brilliant scientist, took this young man round with him; took him across Europe; taught him; was his mentor. And this young man became one of our most brilliant scientists.
It must have been with great trepidation that he turned up at The Royal Institute in Albemarle Street where his laboratory now is, but extraordinary, brilliant.
The Good Lord is no respecter of backgrounds. Never has been! He plants genius the world over. It is up to us to find it.
And why did I choose him? I admired his scientific discovery; I admired his method - you know, the experiment, the proof and the imagination if the results did not fit the theory.
I admired his total fascination with the subject; his total singleness of purpose, because it is of such men that Britain's reputation in the scientific world has been built. [end p4]
And then, it so happens you may think of me as the first woman Prime Minister here. I happen to be the first person with a scientific degree and so here we have tried to get sculptures or pictures of some quite famous scientists, and as you come in downstairs there is a bust of Faraday lent to me by the Royal Institution. It should be up here, but it came on a plinth of granite that weighs three-quarters of a tonne and that would have gone through the floor, so it is on the ground floor!
But a remarkable person to whom we owe so much. Newton another.
Russell Harty, BBC
Are you allowed to decorate the house in any way you wish?
P.M.
I suppose one would be, but it was very beautifully decorated when I came here and I have left that as it is, but one does try to get sometimes pictures of things that mean something, and I have tried to get pictures or sculptures of great scientists, because there were not many here, and I have one of Faraday. I also have one of Sir Humphrey Davy - a small one. [end p5]
Russell Harty, BBC
For those people who did not know, what would be the central most important thing that Faraday did?
P.M.
Well really, the relationship between electricity and magnetism.
Russell Harty, BBC
And how does that manifest itself in everyday life?
P.M.
Just in almost every electronics that we have.
Russell Harty, BBC
It makes things work?
P.M.
It is just absolutely fundamental.
Russell Harty, BBC
Now then. In the course of your years in office, you have had to travel a great deal. I presume now that you can no longer - and possibly in the future - you can no longer ever be an ordinary package tourist, can you? [end p6]
P.M.
No. Alas, no. It is not only for myself, but if one did just go on commercial flights and it was discovered, it might put other people at risk.
It has happened. I came back from the United States Economic Summit during the Election last time on a commercial flight, but no-one knew and it had to be a very carefully-kept secret. I loved it!
Russell Harty, BBC
You did? I mean by that that you cannot go to places like favourite places of geographical interest of which one you have chosen &dubellip;
P.M.
I do sometimes. The great thing is not to have anything fixed very long in advance.
Russell Harty, BBC
But, for instance, you have chosen the Taj Mahal as a favourite place of visit.
P.M.
Ah yes! You asked me about the building. I had seen pictures of the Taj Mahal on picture postcards for years and it was just very familiar, and when I went to India for the first time, just before I was Prime Minister, I thought “I must go to Agra and see the Taj [end p7] Mahal, but I expect I will be disappointed in it!”
You know something that becomes so familiar sometimes looks a little bit trite. And then I got there. We were not able to see it in moonlight, but we saw it early morning. It is the most breathtakingly beautiful building I have ever seen. No photograph can do it justice. It is lovely in all the white marble, and there are just precious stones inlaid into the white marble and I brought back just something to indicate what it is like. The work is still done, but this kind of work, these precious stones inset right into the marble all over the Taj Mahal building. It is just beauty and craftsmanship on a scale one could not imagine and, of course, it has a lovely story to it. It is the tomb &dubellip; (CUT)
Russell Harty, BBC
I presume that now it is virtually impossible for you to be a package tourist. You cannot sneak in and sneak out and see things?
P.M.
Well, it is difficult because the moment I go round some of the places we all want to see I am just surrounded by people, which is very nice and they are very kind and I love it, but it means that I cannot usually see the building, so we try to go either early [end p8] in the morning or once I remember in St. Mark's Square when I was at a conference in Italy and we were leaving an official dinner at about 11.30 at night and I said: “Just let us take the boat and go round the canals!” We kind of landed at St. Mark's Square at 2.30 am in the morning. It was deserted and looked beautiful.
Russell Harty, BBC
What do the Italians call you?
P.M.
Oh Mama Tatcha! Mama Tatcha! Mama Tatcha! Mama Tatcha! It was lovely! Absolutely lovely!
But I think the favourite one - the one that has really taken me aback with its beauty - is the Taj Mahal in Agra in India.
We are all familiar with it on picture postcards and I thought somehow when I saw it, it would be trite. You know, sometimes things are so familiar you almost do not see their beauty any more.
We went early in the morning - it was before I was Prime Minister - early in the morning, because that was when not so many people &dubellip; and it just caught one's breath with its beauty, this fantastic marble set, all of it, with semi-precious stones. They still do some of the work and, of course, I brought back something just to try to be a memory. This is all inset right in the marble. Lovely work, but it is done all over the [end p9] Taj Mahal. You would not believe it and it so beautiful. The outline is beautiful; the architecture is lovely; and the workmanship exquisite; and it has a lovely story.
It is, of course, the tomb of a dearly-loved wife of one of the Moguls and he built this most beautiful tomb for her so that he could always see it and remember her and then, as I am afraid so often happened in those early days, father and son did not get on very well and often son seized power from father and it happened in that case and father was imprisoned in a fortress quite a way from the Taj Mahal. He was not allowed to look at it. The cruelty of some of those days was terrible. He was not allowed to look at it. He was imprisoned in a small little gable round the edge of the building and he was allowed to look into a small mirror no bigger than my hand and as he looked in the mirror, he could see the reflection of the Taj Mahal in it; and when he died he was also supposed to have a tomb of his own, but I think, as far as I remember, the son thought he would be economical and put father in the same tomb, and so it is rather lovely in the end because he was laid to rest in the same tomb.
But the building, it exceeds all expectations. I understand they are having some difficulty with it now because there is pollution in the air as well and the danger is it will turn that lovely white marble, it will be discoloured, but they are taking steps to stop that [end p10] because it is just one of the beauties of the world which if anyone has a chance to see, please see it. I am told you should also see it by moonlight. One day, I will try to do that.
Russell Harty, BBC
At the other end of the day.
P.M.
At the other end of the day.
But you will love India too. There is a natural affinity between India and Britain. I do not know what it is, but it has a magic and it is also the world's greatest democracy, largest in size, but there is a magic about it and some wonderful things and the craftsmanship of that period unbelievable!
Russell Harty, BBC
Do you eat Indian food?
P.M.
Not a lot. I do love curry now and then, but I do not have so much food with such heavy spices.
Russell Harty, BBC
Where is there left in the whole wide world that you think you would want to go that you have not yet been able to see? [end p11]
P.M.
I have not seen some of the ancient buildings in Turkey. Some of the very well-known ones are there. I have only been to Turkey once and that was for a conference.
I have seen some of them in Athens but, of course, [gap in tape] I've never been to Latin America - I have been to Mexico, where there is the most marvellous museum of all the antiquities - but I have not yet been to Latin America. I have been many many years ago to the beauties of Rome where you peel off civilisation after civilisation and find one underneath, and I have been to Bethlehem and Nazareth and Galilee. But it is quite a shock to those of us who go there almost as if we are turning over the stones of the Bible to see water ski-ing you know, on the Lake of Galilee, and quite a shock to see, oh, just masses of tourists and little cafes, you know, round the great holy …
Russell Harty, BBC
Did you not think Bethlehem awful?
P.M.
It did not quite seem as holy as one expected but then, you look at our own country and it is the same thing. You get a lot of tourists and they leave a lot of litter in places of great beauty and in great beauty spots, but there is still so much to see and I think somehow young people and older people have a great natural affinity. [end p12]
I find these days that younger people want desperately to know their roots. It is very important. Where do you come from? Why?
And older civilisations are fascinating. I have not been to Masada the great battles there, the great bravery and courage there. And so do older people. You know people go on the great package tours and it enables us to see not only buildings but buildings which describe the lives of people, describe their talents and their genius, but the favourite one, for sheer beauty and craftsmanship, and I think we come to value more and more in years of mass-production, the craftsmanship, and that too is returning to Britain.
Russell Harty, BBC
Now, in Britain, you seem to be quite lyrical about spring. Spring cheers you up and warms you and heartens you?
P.M.
Yes, it does. Again, I never quite noticed until I got a good deal older that we have a whole six months of the year without leaves on the trees. We can see the structure of the trees but … and it is dark for quite a time, and gradually, the flowers and the woodlands and scenes of spring have come to mean more and more.
This year, on New Year's Day, we went for a walk with friends of ours in the village of Westwell, not [end p13] far from Burford, and do you know, New Year's Day on a piece of grass which was sheltered, I saw a clump of snowdrops. New Year's Day! Beautiful! The purity of their whiteness. They are always the promise of spring, but I have never seen them so early. We have them too in Chequers, a whole area of snowdrops, and they are lovely, and last year in February, you know there was snow on the ground or hard snow, for a month, and they pushed their way through this snow, just the strength of the growing point. And then come later the wild anemones and the primroses and the bluebells, and then the daffodils, and there are lovely crocus patches in St. James' Park and at Hyde Park Corner.
I remember at my son's school, whenever we went on great occasions or to the service on Sunday, there were whole rows of children saying: “Please do not park on the crocus patch!” and we always had to be careful, but you see, it is lovely and just that snowdrop is a promise of spring.
Russell Harty, BBC
You see, I take almost the opposite view. The older I get, the more inclined I am to like autumn. I think spring is a challenge; autumn is a time you can calm down a bit. [end p14]
P.M.
But the colourings of autumn are lovely, but it is such a long time to spring.
Yes, I too love autumn and I am very glad we have seasons, because you know, last time when I went to the Commonwealth Conference in the Bahamas, they do not really have seasons - they have two months in the year when the temperature is less high than it otherwise would be - and to have a year without seasons would be to miss such a great deal.
Yes, I too love autumn, and there are things about winter I love. I remember always rather liking winter at home, because one went back home. In those days you had coal and log fires and you remember not only the loveliness of the coal and log fires - you cannot have them in certain zones now, clean-air zones - but it was a whole ambience, a whole atmosphere, a whole warmth; the whole warmth of family life. You went into a family circle.
Yes, so each has its memories. Each has its beauty.
Russell Harty, BBC
Do you feel Time's Winged Chariot behind you. You are now sixty. Do you feel different &dubellip; [end p15]
P.M.
No, I do not feel sixty at all! Other people, you know, are sixty, but not me, because I have been almost conditioned in politics to think, oh, sixty … goodness me … you can get a retirement pension at sixty, and I do not feel like that at all. Mercifully, many politicians virtually started their prime ministership at sixty or later.
But you know, perhaps you are conditioned sometimes a bit too much by the journals and newspapers you read, particularly the women. Thirty, you know. Sometimes, this is an age you dare not mention. Your youth has gone. Forty. My goodness, that is getting on! Fifty is half a century!
But you know, as you get to each age, it is much younger than you thought and the thirty, the forty, the fifty, the sixty, they only happen to other people! They do not happen to you or your contemporaries at all! It is just how you feel.
I do not feel sixty. I do not think I would be a different age from what I am, but life you know &dubellip; what a pity you cannot have the experience at sixty when you are much younger, but everyone says that.
Russell Harty, BBC
People claim that cooking and decorating particularly are kind of favourite methods of relaxation. Can you still do those things? [end p16]
P.M.
Yes, I do. I still do some cooking. We are lucky. When there are great occasions here, obviously people come in and do it for us. When we are in on our own - it is rare; it is a rare treat if we are on our own - and you have seen my little kitchen, the small almost galley kitchen, and we go in there and we have very simple things, perhaps because we have other rich food, but one's tastes get simpler, and if we are alone we would choose things like bacon and egg or a favourite of ours, poached egg on Bovril toast - oh very nice! Brown toast. Brown, wholemeal toast. You just scrape it with a little butter and Bovril and then you put a poached egg on top of it and it gives an extra savoury flavour.
Yes, we do like the dairy things. Cauliflower cheese with an egg dropped in and then just fresh fruit afterwards.
But they are much simpler things and again, when you are older, you go for simpler things.
Russell Harty, BBC
And do you do them?
P.M.
Yes, I do them. [end p17]
Russell Harty, BBC
Are you at all responsible for State menus here?
P.M.
Yes, when we have people visiting us and we have the official luncheons or dinners, yes we do have them, and quite often I send them back because I think they are not well balanced. Quite often, they will have a rich first course of cream soup on, avocado; then followed by a rich second course, meat in a rich sauce or fish in a rich sauce; and then we will have something creamy for a suite; and I just send it back and say: “Look! You cannot digest this! Really, if you are going to have that, you have got to have some sharp fresh fruit for the third course and please, there are many of us who in public life and private life have to watch our figures a little bit, so please not too rich! It is much nicer, but you do want a balanced menu!”
Russell Harty, BBC
Now, decorating always seems to me to be such a mindless occupation. You do not really have …
P.M.
No, no, no, it is not! It is not at all. If you spend a lot of your life pouring over papers, pouring over problems, wondering how you are going to solve them [end p18] and trying to make up a speech and somehow at the end of the day you have done a lot of work but you have not got anything you are satisfied with, then to go and think: “Now, I simply must do some decorating or mend some curtains or make something!” I used to do a lot of my own decorating. I enjoy it.
You cover acres of wall and at the end of the day you can see what you have done! Oh no, it is not mindless. Anyway, you have got to look at the colours and you want to get some life into a room. Do you do it by having plain walls and a brighter carpet or do you do it by getting your colour on your walls?
No, it is just a great hobby and a great relaxation.
Russell Harty, BBC
How skilled are you? Can you do wallpaper, for instance?
P.M.
Yes, I can do wallpaper and I used to do a lot of my own wallpaper.
As a matter of fact, if the paper is patterned, it is much easier to do than if there is very little on it because you do not see the joins.
Russell Harty, BBC
You do not see the joins. [end p19]
P.M.
If you get it right.
Russell Harty, BBC
I was going to say you do not see the joins in some of your favourite sculpture which has quite surprised me. I had never heard of this gentleman before.
P.M.
I first became interested in porcelain and sculpture, first because of the craftsmanship but really because pictures - original pictures - are very expensive to buy and I did want something original, and so I started quite many years ago to buy beautiful plates which had been decorated by craftsman over bygone years. You could buy them then for what seemed a large sum at the time but you could get a one-hundred-years-old plate beautifully decorated for about £25 and you could buy them one at a time, whereas you have to buy a picture altogether, and then you display them together and you have got lovely craftsmanship and lovely colour.
Then, I graduated to having one or two soldiers and then I came across some lovely work by a person who lives in Orpington and I used to live not far away - called Leonard Sutty and he first is a great patriot and he wanted to picture in sculpture, in porcelain pottery scenes from great battles, scenes [end p20] which did fantastic credit to people of Great Britain, and he decided to do a porcelain set of figures of the landing at San Carlos Bay &dubellip;
L.H.
Do you want to lift it out? Is it very very heavy?
P.M.
No, it is not heavy. This is all in porcelain. The quality of the work is superb. Everything single thing is correct. He takes endless trouble in all his work, but what struck me about it was he had caught so much the spirit of our professional armed forces and the spirit of Britain.
Look! This was raising the flag at San Carlos Bay in the Falklands. Look at the beauty! Look at the craftsmanship of it, the loveliness, but look above all at the expressions on the faces of the marines! No gloating at all, but just unbelievable kindliness and pride once again in raising the flag of Britain. More than that, restoring freedom to the people of the Falklands. But look at it! It is the spirit of Britain and it is everything that makes us great: the professional standards, the high standards and of course the way they treated too the Argentine soldiers who were taken prisoner. The kindliness towards them was perhaps greater than some of them had ever known. But it is a work of genius and to have captured that is [end p21] marvellous. I just wanted to contrast it with another piece of work which was another …
Russell Harty, BBC
This is almost too heavy, is it?
P.M.
No, it is not, but we have to be very careful because they are lovely.
This is another famous battle - the Napoleonic Wars 1811, the Battle of Albvera - and this was the battle for us to retain - this soldier to keep the colours, to keep the flag. Look at the composition of it! Can you imagine? This is all in porcelain! The lovely composition, the triangular composition. Everything correct! And look at the spirit and look at the anger here, the attack upon the enemy trying to get the colours away. It is a famous scene. They never succeeded in getting the colours away, although that man was very badly injured, as you can see, but this work is fascinating. It is beautiful. I have never seen work quite like this.
Russell Harty, BBC
Why do we not know more about him then?
P.M.
Why? Because he is like so many marvellous [end p22] artists. The creation is the important thing and the work &dubellip; the work on this to get it all right, to get the composition, to get the detail, and to bring it into production … and once he has done that, the marketing has to be handed over to someone else and you know, is that not the story of so much that is British? We discover so much, we do so many beautiful things.
And design. We are good at design.
Russell Harty, BBC
Do you know whether that is made as a whole piece? Is it fired as a whole piece?
P.M.
No. They are usually made in sections and then put together; from clay, and then fired together. And then, of course, they have to be painted in the several different colours, sometimes with firing after each, and of course, there are times when at certain parts of strain you will get a crack in the firing, so there is a great deal of skill in making them.
Of course, these pieces, those are not porcelain. They are leather or plastic. It would be difficult to make those in porcelain, but it is a fantastic work of art. A work of genius. [end p23]
Russell Harty, BBC
What do you do with it? Is it a centre-piece?
P.M.
It is a centre-piece.
Russell Harty, BBC
For instance, for a table.
P.M.
But I now collect them - they are so lovely … and again, they give such colour and interest to a room that one by one I collect them, individual soldiers, and quite a number of people in our armed forces also try to collect them because they are so accurate.
Russell Harty, BBC
Did you ever want to be or consider that you might be an actress?
P.M.
I used to do a certain amount of amateur acting, but no, I do not think I would have become a professional actress. I did a certain amount of amateur work, particularly as a child, and of course you learn a little bit from speaking and also from being a barrister. But you see, an actor or an actress have to pour themselves into a part created for them. In a way, [end p24] we speak the lines which we create and of course, they are not always in such a beautiful language, and we make our own roles as we go along and the way in which we do it, so it is a little bit different.
Russell Harty, BBC
Yes, but nobody can doubt that you have actually created a very very important and powerful role for yourself.
P.M.
Yes, you do it for yourself. You do not recreate another person according to how you interpret the work and I have seen actors and actresses spend a great deal of time studying some of the historical roles they play, learning all about everything surrounding the period, and they do a fantastic job, but I am amazed that they can pour themselves into such different roles, because they are far from type-cast, as you know, the best ones. They can pour themselves into such different roles. I do not think I could do that.
Russell Harty, BBC
The interesting thing is that they frequently have to turn things off &dubellip; sorry, the interesting thing is they have to turn emotions on often. Now, there must be times when you have to turn them off? [end p25]
P.M.
Turn them off? Well there are some times when you have to be deadpan, yes.
Russell Harty, BBC
What about the odd tear?
P.M.
Oh yes. That is not turning it off. It is very difficult if it comes on. It is trying to keep it in check. Oh yes, that is trying to keep things very much under control. Yes, you do have to do that and talk to yourself quite sternly and say: “Now look! You really must not break down here!”
L.H.
Does that sort of skill apply at Prime Minister's Question Time? - Do you have to …
P.M.
That is somehow quite different. The House is very noisy these days and you know the people who are asking the questions are not always interested in the answers. They are more interested in putting you off your stroke.
So you go in, having had endless preparation. It takes a long time. The night before, one tries to think what will be the topics of the day. You start listening [end p26] to the News early in the morning, from six o'clock onwards, to see what has happened overnight. You read the papers. You try to spot the questions, because I do not know what they are going to be, and then all over lunch, I have very little lunch that day because you want the blood to go to the brain and not to digest what you have got in the tummy. I have very little lunch, and we just go on working, trying to spot the questions, and then as I go in, it is always now: “Keep calm and concentrate, because if you do not people will try to put you off your stroke!” and that is often the objective.
And it does not get any easier, except that I think perhaps like most people who do things in the public eye - whether it is walking out at Wembley on to that football pitch on Cup Final Day, the Boat Race or Wimbledon or walking on to the stage - the butterflies are always in your tummy and you think: “Why do I do this?” Then the thing starts and you concentrate on the subject.
Yes, it is keeping yourself in check, because if you ever let go, or angry words or a wrong word you cannot take back, it is better not to speak them.
Russell Harty, BBC
Excellent. A lot of people also claim that you are perhaps the most human of prime ministers in your responses. I mean, you will frequently say the most [end p27] important thing that comes into your mind quickly. Do you ever live to regret those things?
P.M.
I try to answer the questions which are asked. I am told that that was not always the thing to do. Some people try to avoid answering them and there are some times when you do have to say: “Look! As you know, it is not the custom to answer questions of this kind!” because you cannot carry on government without some matters being in confidence. You cannot carry on life without being able to trust the confidence of some people.
Russell Harty, BBC
Now, as far as literature is concerned, you have inclined towards Rupert Brooke because the poem you have chosen, what is it, “These you have loved” …
P.M.
There is one called “The Great Lover” and it comes to a section called “These I Have Loved,” and I need my specs for this I am afraid.
L.H.
Are you worried about wearing specs? [end p28]
P.M.
I do not like wearing them if I can avoid it. I am afraid I have my speeches typed in larger and larger type so that I do not have to wear them.
L.H.
But is that vanity or is it something else?
P.M.
I do not know. I think probably it is, but no, I think if I put specs on people say: “Ah, she is wearing specs!” and it takes their mind of what I am saying.
Let us see if I can get this. The television lights are very bright. Let us see if I can do it without specs having said that.
L.H.
Just tell us what it is first of all.
P.M.
It is a poem by Rupert Brooke. This extraordinary poet died at the age of twenty-eight; was killed of course in the First World War, 1915, and yet his poems were fantastic.
I like poetry. Some of it is very complicated and you have to study it very deeply like T.S. Eliot.
Rupert Brooke's is very straightforward but lovely language and he did this thing called “The Great Lover” and it is not about what you think it is about; it is [end p29] about things he loved, and he says:-
“These I have loved, white plates and cups, clean gleaming Ring'd with blue lines, and feathery, fiery dust Red roofs beneath the lamplight, the strong crust of friendly bread And many-tasting food. Rainbows, and the blue bitter smoke of wood, And radiant raindrops couching in cool flowers, And flowers themselves, that sway through sunny hours Dreaming of moths that drink them under the moon. Then the cool kindliness of sheets, that soon smooth away trouble And the rough male kiss of blankets. Grainy wood. Live hair that is shining and free Blue massing clouds, keen unpassioned beauty of a great machine The benison of hot water, furs to touch, The good smell of old clothes, and other such. The comfortable smell of friendly fingers, Hair's fragrance, and a musty reek that lingers About dead leaves, and last year's ferns.”
Isn't it perfect for your programme?
All the things one does love. But you do love the familiar things. (OVERTALK) And you can feel it coming through, yes
Their names, and a thousand others throng to me. Yes. Absolutely lovely [end p30]
Russell Harty, BBC
It is a sort of very powerful list though, isn't it? Do you make lists for yourself?
P.M.
Yes, it is a very powerful list, the language, and everyone who sees this says: “Yes, I love those things!”
Yes, I do make lists. I am a bit of a list-maker, because there is a certain amount which has to be done and I make lists. I also get some sort of enjoyment from ticking things off a list as done, don't you? If you do not make a list, you forget them!
Russell Harty, BBC
I frequently find old lists in pockets and I do not quite know what they are about. Sort of, you know, marmalade and …
P.M.
&dubellip; dreadful … or they remind you of someone's birthday you have forgotten or a message that you have [end p31] forgotten, and then the feeling of guilt.
Russell Harty, BBC
Now! One of the things that you have found quite recently are sketch-books by Queen Victoria.
P.M.
Yes. Of course, Queen Victoria means so much to each and every one of our fellow countrymen and also especially to politicians, because it was a fantastic reign; a reign in which Britain's power and strength and influence grew and in which we did so many good things like taking the best of democracy and the best of British law the world over, and Queen Victoria and her Prime Ministers are so very well known, and Queen Victoria's diaries, her writings, her sayings, her wisdom, are so very well known.
All of sudden this book was given to me, “Queen Victoria's Sketch Book” - and it was just like a treasure chest. I had not known that Queen Victoria was so marvellous an artist and she did these wonderful things, scenes from family life. Look at these enchanting pictures of children. And apparently she liked also drawing children's dresses from behind so that you could see the detailed description of the clothes.
Look at the human things! Look at the warmth, the expression on the faces! The children. Her children. Alice, April 25th 1845. And the whole attitude of the [end p32] nurse in taking the child for a walk. And look! They are lovely!
Russell Harty, BBC
They are.
P.M.
But they are sheer genius.
Russell Harty, BBC
Why do we not know more about them I wonder?
P.M.
I do not know. To me, it was just a delight, and look at some of these scenes, some of the Scottish scenes; they too have their beauty. Look! Lovely! One after another. Some sketches. Some beautifully finished.
Russell Harty, BBC
Have you seen the originals of any of these?
P.M.
I have been privileged on visits to Windsor to see some of these, which are kept in the library, and it is lovely. But you know, one feels that everyone ought to know. [end p33]
We know that a number of our modern-day royals have inherited this talent and do a good deal of sketching but I had not associated it.
Russell Harty, BBC
Stark and beautiful.
P.M.
Absolutely. Both of them. This one is lovely.
Russell Harty, BBC
She was obviously a prolific diarist. Do you have a nightly committal to the diary?
P.M.
No, I do not and I have purposely not had a nightly committal to the diary. I think that some politicians' diaries are for posterity and I feel we have cabinet meetings, we have meetings, on many days we have conversations. Those conversations are meant to be such that you are absolutely frank with one another, and if you feel that someone is going to commit them to writing, it will be very much a one-sided view; then it is going to alter what you say and once it does that, the trust goes.
Yes, I am afraid there will be some people who will write diaries. There are many that have been published. I am always fascinated by them, but I just [end p34] like all my colleagues to know that no, I do not write down these things. I think that is the right way to go about it.
Russell Harty, BBC
You have quite powerful recall of events?
P.M.
Yes, You cannot recall everything because you are dealing with so many things in a day and some things you almost completely forget, but certainly the minutes of meetings are carefully written so when you want to come back there is no need to take anything with you. You are entitled to go and look at all of the papers relating to your own meetings, to your own decisions.
But I just have a good healthy suspicion of the diaries of some politicians. I think they are very one sided and I think that some of them were written to be published and I just decided that trust and confidence is very important. Sometimes you might have a cross word, but I have always had a saying between myself and my closest colleagues, and it started really between Keith Joseph and myself. He is a remarkable man. One day this country will know what it owes to him. A person of total integrity. Say: “Look! Say what you like. Please understand, I have no toes to tread on!” and he said: “Neither have I!” [end p35]
“If you say something which is critical, I shall not take offence!” We need critical things said to us sometimes because we perhaps cannot see ourselves as others see us, so I have no toes to tread on and never bear a grudge or vindictiveness of any kind. It is necessary that people are frank with you sometimes. It may hurt, but it helps.
Russell Harty, BBC
Except that in the final analysis you have created for yourself and will be recognised as one of the most important prime ministers of this country.
Now do you not have an obligation to put down your thoughts, your ideas, your readings of certain things?
P.M.
I think thoughts and ideas and what one did and why one did it and one's passionate beliefs, because everything one does in my case stems from a belief … yes, I think one perhaps has a duty to put that down, but that is quite different from taking a day-to-day diary about who said what to whom. Quite different. [end p36]
Russell Harty, BBC
Now, when the cares of office are put to one side, presumably in an evening, as much as they can be, and high-heeled shoes come off and slippers go on, and you are known to pour a little glass of scotch to relax with, do you then read at all, I mean for private reasons?
P.M.
I kick my shoes off, yes. I do not put slippers on because I walk about without shoes on; it is relaxing. Yes, I do have a scotch, always with soda. I do not like scotch with water. I just like a lot of soda or a sparkling water, a British sparkling water, not a French one. A British sparkling water.
Do I read? I am working very late at night because the system is that when I am having meetings in the day everyone else is working on papers, and they all come up one after the other to do at night, and so I am working quite late at night, very late if I have been in the House of Commons. And then one's mind is so full of the problems, because sometimes they are very perplexing and disturbing problems, and I have got to put something else into my mind in order to be able to go to sleep and yes, then I will read. I will read many different things. It may be a detective story; it may be a Freddy Forsyth. I think I am re-reading “The [end p37] Fourth Protocol” at the moment. It may be some other books. There is an absolutely fascinating one I am reading at the moment called “The Seeds of Change” and it is about plants which have changed the life of the world. For example, the discovery of quinine, the plant that produces quinine, of course meant that so many people did not die and enabled many things to happen that otherwise would have not.
Sugar. When we went from honey to sugar. Everything that meant in the Caribbean, the West Indies, and how the slave trade started with it and how that had to be ended.
Then cotton and tea and how all of these things have somehow changed the history of the world. It is absolutely fascinating.
And it is interesting and so it enables me to take my mind right off what I have been doing and eventually the book falls off the bed, I turn off the light and drift off to sleep.
Russell Harty, BBC
And you need very little sleep?
P.M.
When we are under pressure - I have learned to be under pressure - I can need very little sleep. In the Recess, I will have more sleep, but I can go for many many days and weeks on comparatively little sleep. [end p38]
If you have got a lot in your mind to worry you, you will find that it not easy to sleep a great deal.
Russell Harty, BBC
Because there are those people who would wish to God to know what it is that you take secretly in your little &dubellip;
P.M.
No, I do not take anything. I do not like taking chemicals, pharmaceuticals … against it.
Russell Harty, BBC
Strong and powerful men are keeling over around you as you stride on.
P.M.
Yes, I wonder why. I do not know why. I think you build up stamina and training from years and years of experience and I think you get a certain wisdom to know what you really must worry about and worry about very hard and strain every sinew to try to correct it, and that there are some problems that you cannot solve.
I remember reading a work by someone - I will not say who, he is now a bishop - and all of a sudden reading a bit of his, because I do take a great interest in these matters, saying: there are some things in life that you cannot solve and you must try to recognise [end p39] that. Nevertheless, you have to learn to live with them and do the best you can. So often, you know, it is a phrase that one uses. I remember my own family: Well, you will have to do the best you can! And sometimes, that is just exactly what you have to do.
Russell Harty, BBC (Re-take).
There are quite a few people who are critical of you and often annoyed by you and angered by you who yet privately will say: “Look! We have had however many men prime ministers over the last sort of thirty or forty years who have all keeled over and yet Margaret &dubellip; battering on and striding on. What does she put into her water or what does she put into her scotch?”
P.M.
Well, I do not like taking things to keep one going at all. Indeed, I try not to take medicaments of any kind. I think the only thing I do take every day is vitamin C every morning just to make certain one has maximum resistance to infection, but that is the only thing.
No. Many is the time when sometimes a doctor has said to me: “Look! You have difficulty in getting to sleep. Won't you have sleeping pills?” No. No. I will not. I do not like doing that. We have a [end p40] reasonable diet. I have learned to cope with living under stress.
Russell Harty, BBC
Well, what is it then that powers you?
P.M.
I do not know. I am often asked about this. It is a lot of training and it is a good deal of experience but perhaps, you know, women are better at it than men.
You know, when everything is going wrong in the home and the telephone is ringing, there is someone at the front door, a piece of calamitous news has happened, life has just got to go on, and you turn and do the next thing. It may be making a cup of tea; it may be comforting someone; it may be getting the children home from school or getting them off to something they are going to. Come what may, we cope! We have to. There is no-one else to do it, so women will cope, and that perhaps is the answer.