Katherine Paviot
Prime Minister, I thought we would start by asking you what your views about “EXPO” and “ENTERPRISE” are. What do you think of EXPO 86?
Prime Minister
Well, I am looking forward to it obviously first because I am told we have a marvellous British pavilion and therefore, we really can display our expertise in transport and communications.
And secondly, because I want to go to Vancouver for the centenary celebrations. I have never been before, so it really enables me to do a double thing—see a lot of the people in British Columbia and also to help with the sale, although it is an indirect help, of more British things the world over. [end p1]
Katherine Paviot
Now, the theme, as you have mentioned, is Transport and Communications. Do you think that this is a field in which Britain can hold its own with other nations?
Prime Minister
I think it has, you know, and there are quite a number of things which we were first in. I am thinking obviously at the moment of aero engines, Frank Whittle, the jet engine. I am thinking of the hovercraft that we were first in. I am thinking of vertical take-off with the Harrier aircraft; and we have done some very very good work on rail travel, very good work. I think they have got something new being shown there. I think they have probably got our Rolls-Royces there, which is a quite unique car. I think they have probably got various other cars there.
And then there are all the electronic communications too, which we should be very good at. We have also extremely good scientists. I think it gives us a chance to show what Britain can do.
Katherine Paviot
Now, of course, these are examples from the past, so no question about Britain's role in the history of transport and communications. How do you think Britain can shape up though to the challenge and demands of the 21st century? [end p2]
Prime Minister
Just by going on and developing that particular kind of inventiveness and scientific research that we have. I shall be going in Concorde. That too, a remarkable example of Anglo-French communication.
Challenge of the 21st century. You know, so much of the work on molecular biology, which led to cloning, was done at the Medical Research Laboratory at Cambridge. That really was a tremendous British breakthrough. Double helix, of course, as you know, was another tremendous British breakthrough. There is quite a lot of work on treatment of cancers and tumours being done here too.
Katherine Paviot
Of course, there are those who say: “Yes, the British are extremely good innovators. They have wonderful ideas, but they do not always develop them, and when they do develop them, they do not always deliver on time.”
How would you react to that?
Prime Minister
They are quite right. We do not always develop them. We do our research, and then we write it in the most scientific papers and give the knowledge for the whole world to see. That is what happened with cloning. It was not even patented, and it makes me very cross and irritable sometimes, and I go round and say: “Look! [end p3] Don't you realise that we cannot even find the extra funds for you to do more research unless you take part in the creation of wealth which your very results can bring?
They are becoming much more conscious of it now. We are talking in No. 10 Downing Street now. I have had here three seminars where we tried to bring universities and industry together much more.
I think perhaps in the whole of North America, including Canada, you are much more used to people in universities being in and out of industry; much more used to a close cooperation than we are. It has taken us quite a long time to get it, but it is coming slowly.
Katherine Paviot
So the scientists and the innovators play their role, but what about the commercial aspect? There was once a picture that British industry did not always deliver on time.
Prime Minister
Well it is very much better. As you know, this Government has played a tremendous part in getting rid of some outmoded trade union legislation—there perhaps is still more to do in the longer run—but that really has brought about a change of attitude and it enabled technological change to come about. Before, it was not always easy, because companies would put in [end p4] because companies would put in very heavy investment, and because of the restrictive practices, they were not able to get a proper return from them. That has changed and, as you know, our productivity has gone up enormously. Indeed, sometimes it gives me problems because it means we can produce more and more with fewer people. That is happening the world over, and the only way to take up for people who lose their jobs is of course by the formation of more and new small businesses, and that is a slower process than getting old industries efficient, and we are in a gap position and I think Canada possibly is too. It takes a longer time for people to start up new businesses with new products that will sell.
Katherine Paviot
Now, it is two months, since the Prince and Princess of Wales opened EXPO. Why have you chosen to go at this particular time?
Prime Minister
I think perhaps because that was the time that either they invited me to go or I was able to go. [end p5]
For two weeks in July it is British Week. Because it is British National Day on the 12th July and I know that the Royal Ballet are over there too, so we are all trying to put a tremendous effort into the British Week and I am going, and much more important than that, Princess Margaret will be there and will be there at the ballet and I will hope to see the ballet too.
But obviously, when you have British Week and special efforts are being made for that, we must pull in and row as hard as we can behind those who are exhibiting there.
Katherine Paviot
Yes, because indeed, as well as all the hard technology, there is a sizeable culturable contribution from Britain.
Prime Minister
Something else at which Britain excels, whether it is music, whether it is art, whether it is musical shows. I do not know if Andrew Lloyd Webber is there, but of course, everyone knows his fantastic musical shows. We are marvellous at drama, and it is just something else at which Britain excels. There is a lot going for Britain.
Katherine Paviot
What sort of Britain does it project? [end p6]
Prime Minister
It projects a Britain who has excellent scientists, are very good at invention, now efficient industries, very very good at commerce and finance, outstanding cultural achievement; a Britain that is dealing with its historic problems in no uncertain way and overcoming them. That is the sort of Britain I want people to see in Vancouver.
Katherine Paviot
Now, you have visited Canada a number of times before, but as you have said, it is the first time to Vancouver. Does this herald a new chapter in the Anglo-Canadian relationship?
Prime Minister
I think we tried to herald a new chapter some time ago. You know, it was just a little bit difficult when there were the constitutional arguments, because we were asked to do certain things and obviously, I said: “Look! It makes it much easier for us to do them if, in Canada, you can get agreement between both the provinces and the federal government,” and it took some time to get that. It took some time for them to get it and then it came over to our Parliament and we got all of the changes through, and after that, we did make a tremendous effort to go across a little bit more and to work more closely with Canada and, indeed, we have done so. I think we worked closely in the Commonwealth; we [end p7] worked closely in the Summit Seven; so all of those problems are over. We like to have more inward investment both ways and we like trade to flourish both ways.
Katherine Paviot
How would you describe the nature and the character of the Anglo-Canadian relationship?
Prime Minister
It is one which people feel because almost everyone has a relation in Canada and they travel to and fro quite a lot themselves. So it is much deeper than Commonwealth; it is much deeper than history. It is a relationship people-to-people and that perhaps is the most important thing.
Katherine Paviot
There is a strong trading relationship between the two countries. Where would you see the room for growth? Where would you like to see the developments?
Prime Minister
I think you see developments on all sides. You know, once you trade with another country it may be in traditional goods, but you get differences of design and as people get more and more [end p8] prosperous, they are constantly looking for novelty and differences in design and prepared to evaluate them, not on the basis of where they come from, but on whether they like them.
But then, again, we do, as we know, have really special expertise in finance, special expertise in the biological sciences and also, we have always been good at aircraft, and some of the other things in communications, particularly on railways, are good too.
Katherine Paviot
Now, this harmonious relationship between Canada and Britain, do you think it has been in any way weakened by Britain's membership of the European Community?
Prime Minister
I think there was a feeling at first that that was so, but I think Canada understood why we had to do that. We are, of course, geographically part of the continent of Europe. Canada geographically is part of America, so Canada understood why you have to have a very close relationship with your adjacent country. She understood more than anyone else, and therefore she was the first to understand why we had to be strong with our geographical neighbours, and you know, when you have a very strong trading relationship and political relationship with a particular group and also with another group, the fact that each of us has other [end p9] close friends is a plus—it is not a negative. It just builds a sort of web of family relationships throughout the world. That is good for us all.
Katherine Paviot
And what about on issues such as the open trading system? Do Canada and Britain see eye-to-eye on this?
Prime Minister
I think we all know Canada is a great exporter. So are we. We have to export to live; so does Canada. So it is very much in our interest to try to keep an open trading system going, and I think Canada takes the same view of another GATT round as we do. We would like it to start fairly soon.
Katherine Paviot
Now, while you are in Canada, you are also, I believe, going to meet the Canadian Prime Minister, Mr. Mulroney.
Prime Minister
I will be going to Montreal to see Brian Mulroneyhim, yes.
Katherine Paviot
Specially to do that. What will be top of your agenda in your talks? [end p10]
Prime Minister
We are bound to be discussing South Africa, because we are both members of the seven countries that set up the Eminent Persons Group. We have had the report of the Eminent Persons Group. Mr. Mulroney knows that, belonging to the European Economic Community, we also have another initiative designed really to carry on where the Eminent Persons Group left off.
I think that there is scope for making further improvements; there is scope for trying to get negotiations going, and Mr. Mulroney will be here at the beginning of August for the small Commonwealth Conference of just the seven nations, so we will obviously have to talk about how we see things.
Katherine Paviot
The point is though, Prime Minister, that Canada and Britain do not see eye-to-eye. You are not in agreement about sanctions against South Africa, and today's cancellation of Sir Geoffrey Howe 's trip to South Africa must be a serious blow.
Prime Minister
Geoffrey Howe 'sGeoffrey trip to South Africa has not been cancelled. We are having a certain amount of difficulty in getting a date which is all right for the P. W. BothaPresident of South Africa and all right for Sir Geoffrey. After all, Sir Geoffrey also has a lot of engagements. He is President of the Foreign Ministers Council of [end p11] Europe. We have Mr. Shevardnadze from the Soviet Union coming here and he has to be here for that—so do I—and he then has various other parts of the world to visit, so he is busy, and so is President Botha and it has not proved easy to get a visit mutually convenient, but it will take place towards the end of July and they are sorting out the precise date, but in the meantime, Geoffrey is not just letting the grass grow under his feet. You cannot do this without consulting with a lot of people and so he is going off to talk to some of the leaders of the Front Line States and possibly some members of the ANC, so he is not just saying: “I can do nothing!” He is going off to do those things, and we are also in touch with the United States, because you know you have to be in touch with people who have very considerable influence on South Africa and considerable trade with her, and then he will go and see President Botha. It may well take more than once.
Katherine Paviot
But does that lack of agreement between Canada and Britain mean this is a somewhat delicate time for you to be meeting Mr. Mulroney?
Prime Minister
No, goodness me, if you only met other heads of state or government when there were absolutely no problems, well look, we [end p12] are here to try to resolve problems amicably and in a friendly way, but above all, in a way which is more likely to achieve the objective. The objective is the end of apartheid. We believe that can only come about through negotiations between all peoples of South Africa and above all, the need at the moment is for negotiations with the Government of South Africa and representatives of the black South Africans, and that is a very wide group of representatives. We cannot say what will come out that. But it is no good hitting out. Hitting out is not necessarily the way to get people together.
Katherine Paviot
Overall, Prime Minister, and to sum up, what will you feel Britain will have to have achieved at EXPO to say: “mission accomplished!” ?
Prime Minister
I think a new awareness about people of the new Britain, its new spirit, its new efficiency, its new effectiveness. That, I think is the first thing; but secondly, just the rebirth of a fundamental friendship between Canada and Britain and Canadians and British people.