Peter Spencer, IRN
How would you describe the outcome of the Summit as outlined in the communique on South Africa?
Prime Minister
It is an excellent outcome. It is a constructive outcome. It is one that makes the main point that we hate apartheid, we want to see change, we want to see it without violence, we want to see it by negotiation, this is the way to go.
Peter Spencer, IRN
You say it is an excellent outcome. Is it also a triumph for British policy to the extent that there are no sanctions on offer now?
Prime Minister
I think it is perhaps not a triumph but a very good recommendation for British steady diplomacy. [end p1]
Peter Spencer, IRN
The Commonwealth Eminent Persons Group meanwhile held an initiative and it ended in failure. Why should Sir Geoffrey be any more successful?
Prime Minister
I think the Commonwealth Eminent Persons Group got rather a long way. They had the full backing of the Commonwealth. They were doing very well with their patient steady work and then all of a sudden, by one of those terrible decisions of history, the South African Government bombed the capitals of three adjacent territories. It was a tragedy. It was a disaster, a disaster in itself, a disaster because it virtually brought to an end the work of that group. But they so nearly succeeded that it is worthwhile taking up the torch and seeing if the Community can follow up what they did and get through.
Peter Spencer, IRN
You are clearly then fairly optimistic, but is there not a danger that the South Africans are likely to regard Sir Geoffrey, with the greatest respect, as just another meddling foreigner? [end p2]
Prime Minister
No, no. I do not think they will do that. I think they know that we want to get through constructively. We want to see an end to apartheid. Mr. Botha said apartheid is outmoded, so the only question is how. We do not want to see it by violence. Violence hits the innocent, hits many many innocent. We want to see it by negotiation and peaceful change. That is why we have prescribed what we have in this communique, that is why we believe that Geoffrey Howe should go out and see President Botha and many other people in South Africa to help to do everything we can to bring that negotiation about.
We cannot say what will come out of it. That is not for us. That is for the people, all South Africans themselves, but we can help to bring it about.
Peter Spencer, IRN
It is being said, or has been said, that Sir Geoffrey himself is actually rather more sceptical about the likely outcome of his visit than you are.
Prime Minister
I have great confidence in Geoffrey HoweGeoffrey. If it can be done, he will do it. Of course, it is not always possible to achieve the precise result you want, but he is absolutely the [end p3] best person to go and he goes with the total support and confidence of the Community.
Peter Spencer, IRN
So there is no disagreement between you vis-a-vis as to how it is going?
Prime Minister
None whatsoever. We are an excellent team and we have worked to achieve this result.
Peter Spencer, IRN
Looking on the less optimistic side, if Sir Geoffrey does fail, will you countenance punitive sanctions against South Africa?
Prime Minister
I hope Geoffrey Howehe will not fail. I hope that there will be steps forward. I hope that Nelson Mandela will be released and therefore the way made clear for negotiations.
As you know, I am going to stick to the words the communique actually says. I am not going to put a gloss on them or my interpretation, because you will only then find differences between one interpretation or another. It says that in the meantime, in the next three months, the Community [end p4] will enter into consultations with the other industrialised countries on further measures which might be needed, covering in particular a ban on new investments, the import of coal, iron, steel and gold coins from South Africa. That seems to me reasonable contingency plans, reasonable to consult with other western industrialised countries and reasonable to specify the sort of things on which we will be consulting.
Peter Spencer, IRN
The words, as you say, are clear and they do seem to clearly state that these sanctions are not automatic. Therefore is there not a danger that others will interpret this differently?
Prime Minister
No, I do not think so. What is quite clear is it is not an ultimatum and there is no automatic application of sanctions. If you are trying to persuade someone, it is not a good way to threaten them. South Africa has a very strong economy, an enormous coastline, a lot of resources. Threatening is not going to get her to move in the way in which we want her to move. [end p5]
Peter Spencer, IRN
Some would say that a carrot-and-stick approach is preferable, because there is a serious problem isn't there?
Prime Minister
Well, let us try the carrot. There have been previous sanctions and they are still in place, so perhaps now it is time to try the carrot.