Michael Brunson, ITN
Prime Minister, you certainly, and we in addition, have noted very carefully paragraph 5. It talks about in the next three months the Community will enter into consultations on further measures which might be needed, and then it specifies them.
Have you signed up for the possibility of sanctions in three months' time?
Prime Minister
We have done precisely what is said in that agreement and I am not going to put a gloss on it. There are twelve countries there; each is represented by two people, and if you are going to ask each one “What is your interpretation of that?” and find a word or two's difference, it is not going to be helpful at all.
There are basically three things in that communique. First, that Nelson Mandela must be released and the ANC [end p1] allowed to speak its mind on political matters—in other words be unbanned. Second, a visit by Sir Geoffrey Howe, as President of the Community, to South Africa to try to bring about negotiations and thirdly, in the meantime, in the coming three months, consultations with other industrialised countries in case there might be a need for further measures and it specifies some things about which we shall be consulting. I am not going to put any gloss on it. We have all signed up on that—those precise words. They are measured, they are constructive, they offer a hopeful way forward.
Michael Brunson, ITN
But Mr. Lubbers told me personally: “Mrs. Thatcher now cannot veto sanctions in the future.”
Prime Minister
Mrs. Thatcher and Sir Geoffrey Howe and twenty-two other people there have signed up on those precise words. I am not going to put any variation on them at all. Those are the words on which, on behalf of my country, we have agreed to. [end p2]
Michael Brunson, ITN
But the reason Mr. Lubbers did this was, as he explained, that you had all given him a solemn promise around the table. He described it as a gentleman's agreement that if the time came, none of you now would stand in the way of sanctions.
Prime Minister
The precise words, I seem to remember, were that further measures are not excluded. That really does not help you. This is what we are signed up on precisely. “In the meantime, in the next three months, the Community will enter into consultations with other industrialised countries” —very wise— “on further measures which might be needed, covering in particular a ban on new investments, import of coal, iron, steel and gold coins from South Africa.”
I recognise that you will try to find differences between us. It is a futile exercise. This is a very constructive exercise reached after very careful negotiations, with a clear objective: change by negotiation, an end to violence, and sending Geoffrey Howe, as President of the Community, with all our goodwill and all our confidence.
Michael Brunson, ITN
Prime Minister, I am not trying to find differences between you. What I am trying to find out is did you sign [end p3] up on something which Mr. Lubbers called a gentleman's agreement which commits you to action in the future? You are telling me, presumably, you did not sign up.
Prime Minister
There is nothing automatic to action in the future. That is what you are trying to say. Those words cannot bear that construction. Nothing automatic. Nothing in the way of an ultimatum. There is a way forward, a hopeful way forward.
Michael Brunson, ITN
So let us be quite clear. If it comes to it in three months time and you feel it is still wrong to proceed along the sanctions road, you will continue to oppose it?
Prime Minister
Let us be quite clear. This is what I have signed up on. That is what I confirm I agreed to.
Michael Brunson, ITN
Could I ask you about the future of the mission? The Eminent Persons Group work was cut short by that bombing raid, but they, in their opinion, after six months' hard work, made it quite clear that they regarded the South African [end p4] Government as one which is not prepared to negotiate. You talk about dialogue all the time and one of the reasons why Sir Geoffrey is going is because of that. It seemed clear from the EPG that they are saying this is a government that is not interested in dialogue. Why go ahead with another mission?
Prime Minister
I thought they got a long way. I thought their negotiating concept made good headway and I thought they would have got further but for that raid. That raid was one of the tragedies of history, a tragedy in itself and double tragedy because of its timing, a triple tragedy because it stopped a really constructive negotiating process. They decided they could not go back. They did not specify what measures the Commonwealth should take and, of course, they had no terms of reference for the Community, but they started something and there is a chance that if it is completed that it might be fruitful. If it is not, we shall be consulting with other industrialised countries in this three months along the lines which I have indicated, but let us try to give Geoffrey Howe's mission a chance. I believe it will find an increasing echo in the hearts and minds of more and more South Africans and that is where I think there is a chance of getting through. [end p5]
Michael Brunson, ITN
The point I really wanted to press home was this: the EPG said this is a government that is not interested in dialogue.
Prime Minister
I think I would disagree with that and I think they are interested in negotiations. Otherwise we should not be trying to send this mission, nor the Community.