Angela Ruth, BBC
Prime Minister, please could you begin by telling us the strategy that went behind at least some of these clothes?
Prime Minister
Well, I think really I, in winter and autumn, live a suit life. I live a formal life too, most of my time, and I am in good clothes from early morning until late at night, unless it is week-ends or unless I get the odd day off, so they have got to stand up to quite a lot of wear and tear.
Because I cannot have as many things as I would like, people must not notice that you are in the same thing, so I thought the best thing to have was really to start with black.
When I first came here, I had this black suit made—that was seven years ago. It is made of the very best possible corded wool we could possibly get. It is an excellent suit and still you would not know that it was seven years old. [end p1]
I also had a coat in the same but slightly heavier corded wool made to go with it. It came in extremely useful, for example, when I was attending the unveiling of the Mountbatten statue just outside here. I wanted to do it in black because it suits me and it is the best thing, and so I wore the skirt with this blouse, which is a great favourite, and I wanted to do it in the long coat because it was military and it gives you a very good line. But then we were going off for lunch, and in the back of the car I was able to slip off that coat and slip on that jacket.
Now this has seen quite a lot, this suit. I wore it together with this blouse because it is a nice soft colouring; you have got to get the softness in the blouses. I wore it to sign the Hong Kong Chinese Agreement even though it was six years old; I wore it to address the United States Congress because I knew it, I felt comfortable in it; I did not have to worry about it; I could concentrate on what I was doing.
Angela Ruth, BBC
Is that a priority of yours, not having to worry?
Prime Minister
Not having to worry, and if you are doing something extra special which does worry you, never wear something new. Take something which is familiar, which has brought you good luck in something else you have done, but never wear something new. Try something new out on a different occasion. [end p2]
Angela Ruth, BBC
I have got a dress here which has brought you good luck have I?
Prime Minister
It has brought me good luck. I like this one very much. That is a silk. That is in the navy section. That is in the black section and those are brightened up with blouses.
This I had made in 1982.
For the summer, I have a few silk dresses which, again, are classics. They have to wear and we have to look after them.
This one is a very dark navy silk. I wear it when I do not know what else to wear and I cannot think what to wear and I have not got a thing to wear. Then I wear this. As a matter of fact, it is the same fabric as the one I am wearing now. We got rather a lot end-of-roll and were able to make two dresses, but this has a lot of material. I wore it in the Falklands year, when I had to go across in the middle of the Falklands war to New York to address a full assembly of the United Nations and it came through that all right and it came through the Falklands war all right doing special things, so as I say, when I do not know quite what to wear, this is the old faithful and it will do me well.
It is interesting, just the other day, I went to my old school to open a hall in the name of my Alfred Robertsfather, which was a great joy. I thought: “What can I wear? I know, I will play safe!” [end p3] and this came out yet again, because it is just good, plain and classic.
These two also are silk but they are a heavy silk and they just last like anything. They are four years old now. They can go all day and still not get creased. That is another thing in my life—they must not get creased. But it is getting on a bit—this one is getting on a bit, that one is getting on a bit—you know, styles do change even if you think they do not. Shoulders are wider and they are higher and so they have all had to have pads put in, and insofar as we could, we have just lengthened them a little bit, because they are longer. And the thing we have learned is never really press your hem. You know, sometimes, you see people ironing a dress and they press along the hem until it looks like a knife edge, and then if you want to let it down you cannot. Just leave the hem gently rolled and never press along the edge or go within a quarter of an inch of it; then you can let them down.
Angela Ruth, BBC
How do you know so much technically about clothes?
Prime Minister
Well, first, my Beatrice Robertsmother was a dressmaker and then I made some clothes and then I have learned a great deal from the people who have been making things and these were made by a lady who makes for very few other people and are tailored by a man who makes [end p4] for very few other people and I asked because I am interested; and I am interested that we do the best design and sometimes I run receptions here for the British fashion trade. We have got marvellous designers. I will tell you who is absolutely superb on craftsmanship—it is Jean Muir. I went to her once. She is fabulous on suede. This is a more casual thing. I had it made on a visit to Canada, but it is absolutely lovely. It is a little skirt and straight jacket and again, a marvellous piece of silk fabric—a remnant. So many of my blouses were little pieces that we managed to get. But Jean Muir is always saying to me that she needs more people who know the craftsmanship of making dresses. You know, know all about the seams; know what kind of seam you have; know the proportions, absolutely vital; know how you should do the buttons. And one technical thing she did not teach me—my own dressmaker did—if you have a straight skirt like that, always have two seams down there and because it is a straight skirt, if you sit down you will get creases across. Just put a little pocket in those seams. Do not use it as a pocket. Do not use it at all, because that is not the point of it. Just for a little give when you sit down.
Look I have been in this—we are filming—it is now quarter past three—I have been in this since seven o'clock this morning and I have been sitting up and down all day and there are not any creases. Just another little wrinkle.
[end p5]Angela Ruth, BBC
If you find a design you like, do you have it in lots of different materials and colours?
Prime Minister
Yes indeed. You spotted what has happened here. I have to wear quite a lot of evening dresses, but you never want to invest as much in an evening dress as you do in a suit. It is day clothes—the classic day clothes—that are worth almost investing in, because it is cheaper in the end. As I said, some of those are seven years old. That grey one is seven years old too. But again, it was my dressmaker who discovered this. We had made a sort of petticoat tunic like this. It was made in a heavy silk crepe and it has got those lovely accordion pleats in at the side and they kick out like that. Now that is the basic thing, and then we just have two or three different things to go over it. You see, all that is is about two and a half yards of black chiffon made with slits at the side and that will go over this and look very pretty, still with the little accordion pleats swinging out.
And then the same basis will take this one which is much brighter. I may say I do not wear this one for cameras. I did once and I discovered it looked too blobby on cameras, but if we have to have a dinner here without cameras, that again just goes straight over and we livened that up in a year in which those were quite fashionable. [end p6]
Again, a third one will go over it. That is a plain black one and I wore that for a fashion reception I gave here and I was very pleased, because the designers were quite interested in it, so we were very chuffed.
So that is three—really not quite for the price of one—about three for the price of two.
We just started the same thing.
This is lovely isn't it? Very rarely do I dare go to colours. That is beautiful. We started the same idea. That is the tunic underneath with that, but so far, we have only managed to get one dress … we are now looking for some more fabric of a blue, a different pattern, but a blue that will go over there.
You have got to be fairly economical, because you have to have quite a lot, and you are representing your country, so they have got to be good.
Angela Ruth, BBC
Why do you very rarely dare go to colours, as you just said?
Prime Minister
First, people notice them. If I wear this one, which I am very fond of … I had it made in summer 1983 and I wore it to the Economic Summit that year … this is how they are kept. You might wonder why I have got all this. The big bow up there. Keep your clothes nicely to make them last. So that is why some of them you [end p7] will find tissue paper in. That is a bow. It is very pretty. I love it. It is tailored. I wore it when I was interviewed by Michael Aspel and I wear it on quite a number of occasions. Everyone notices when I am wearing it. If it were black, I could wear it ten times for the one that I can wear it like this, but I like a little colour. I like a lovely fuschia pink. I like a crimson, but people do not expect me to wear crimson, so I have to be careful.
Angela Ruth, BBC
Are there any actual golden rules as Prime Minister about clothes?
Prime Minister
I think there is basically one golden rule really—there are two ways of wearing clothes: one, because you want people to say: “What a fabulous dress!” and then it is the dress that is the thing, and many women, they do like to wear things about which people say: “Oh, isn't that the most fantastic dress!” If you are in any executive position, if you are in business, if you are in the City, if you are in the BBC, if you are in ITV, if you are in No. 10 or in Parliament, your clothes are background for you. They must be a background. It is one reason for wearing something … . [end p8]
Angela Ruth, BBC
Are there any golden rules, Prime Minister, about dressing?
Prime Minister
I think there are quite a number, but I perhaps just have learned a few.
I think when you are having clothes made or when you are buying them, the cut must be good. You have got to watch frills and furbelows. You always have some on, but they must not be such that they conceal bad cutting or bad designing. The basic design of the dress has to be good and the frills just a little bit extra, but it would look all right without them.
I remember very vividly when I was at school, we had a marvellous headmistress who, as we came into the Sixth Form, thought that we ought to learn a little bit about dressing and she got someone down to talk to us and I have never forgotten what she said. This was years and years ago. I am sixty, and in those days, the great thing to have in a small town was a fur coat. She said: “Now look! Unless you can afford to get a really good fur, never buy a fur coat. Take the same amount of money; get as good a woollen coat as you can, but perhaps just a little fur collar. If you want a bright, shiny, satin dress, never buy it unless you can afford a very good silk. Take the same amount of money and get a cotton lawn or a viole!” In other words, [end p9] she was saying get as good a quality as you possibly can of a less expensive material, rather than trying to get a cheaper thing of something that you could not really afford. It has been absolutely marvellous advice.
Angela Ruth, BBC
Again, as Prime Minister, can you ever afford to be flamboyant, daring, sexy?
Prime Minister
Never! Nor would I wish to be. I think there really are basically two ways of dressing.
Obviously, some women want the dress to be absolutely breathtakingly beautiful with a fantastic amount of work in it, so that people say: “Isn't that marvellous dress?”
For those of us who work in business, in politics, in executive positions in business, we have to have very plain clothes—clothes which really are the background to your own personality.
A person who really knew clothes would say: “Ah, what a superb cut!” but they are not there to obscure your personality; they are there really to be a background to it.
Angela Ruth, BBC
But you do enjoy dressing up when the occasion arises? [end p10]
Prime Minister
I do enjoy dressing up, but that, you see, I decided was not for really official duties, because although in a way I loved it, and it is quite different, it was not quite right, so we went to the quieter ones. That to give just a hint of sparkle. That is brighter, but the line is there.
Otherwise, you can really see if you look along, that was grey, that was seven years ago, livened with blouses.
This was last year's version of grey, softer. We went to a kind of tope (phon.) this year, livened with blouses, but you do not see much of the blouse under the suit. Otherwise, you will find the navy is there. Again, a fairly plain fabric, a fairly plain dress, but really very nicely cut and I must say another thing I have learned, in summer the prints do not show the creases, so if you have got to be in them all day, a print is really very good.
Otherwise, what I am doing is repeating the recipe I had. That is one I had made seven years ago. This is this year's, because I thought it was just off its first freshness. It is this year's repeat, but it is not quite a repeat and do you know, fashion again, as I said [illegible word] changes. It has got the four buttons, it has got the longer jacket. There are a few more buttons on this year. It has got just a little bit of satin there and it has got a longer skirt. That will last not seven years, but fifteen! [end p11]
Angela Ruth, BBC
This is your public wardrobe. Is your private wardrobe very different in character?
Prime Minister
Well, yes. You flop around in very much cheaper clothes and dresses. Yes, of course you do, and sometimes, if I come up here when I have finished and I have just got to sit on the settee over there and I have got three hours work ahead, then you slip off the best clothes you are wearing and slip into either a little cotton long dress—anything that is easy, that is comfortable—do not sit around in good clothes. My Beatrice Robertsmother taught me that. Do not sit around in good clothes if you can avoid it. I have to in the office.
Angela Ruth, BBC
Do you ever find yourself making mistakes?
Prime Minister
Making mistakes! I think I have not shown you any of the mistakes. Yes, sometimes there are mistakes. You try a design that does not suit you.
That was a mistake for camera work and so it does not take the same wear because I do not have much occasion, but it does actually look really very pretty on, but it was a mistake for the sort of public work I do … . mistakes there … . tried not to show [end p12] you the mistakes.
Angela Ruth, BBC
What do you feel about criticism about your clothes which inevitably you come in for being a public figure?
Prime Minister
I think some of it was justified, you know. Sometimes, you see, there is a tendency to run along a coat-hanger like that, and you pick something and say: “Doesn't that look marvellous?” and you are so thrilled with it on the coat-hanger that you are not quite, when you put it on it you can have a saleslady who is very anxious to sell and says “Doesn't it look lovely, Madam?” It does not, it looks terrible.
I much prefer one—if I am buying ready-made—who says: “I do not think that is quite for you” and then you trust her judgment.
Angela Ruth, BBC
Do people ever dare to compliment you?
Prime Minister
Now and then, yes. It is marvellous, but compliments rarely come a prime minister's way. [end p13]
Angela Ruth, BBC
Who do you dress for, Prime Minister?
Prime Minister
Who do I dress for? I really dress for the occasion and for the job and it is very very important.
When you go abroad, and you represent your country, you have got to go in well-cut clothes and the first impression people have is what do you look like, so you have to look neat and one goes for elegance rather than smartness, for quietness rather than brightness, but people have got to think that you look nice, that your clothes themselves are nice clothes. I used that word “nice”. I cannot think of another one to use. Sometimes elegant clothes. That they are nicely cut, that they are good quality, and that also applies to men.
Believe you me, we are a western country, sometimes, you know, the politicians from communist countries turn out superbly dressed and some of them, I look, and I think: “Gosh, I bet that came from Saville Row! it is so good.” They are very much aware of how they look, and we have to be just as much aware.
Angela Ruth, BBC
What about Mr. Thatcher, does he cast a critical eye, an appreciative eye?
[end p14]Prime Minister
Yes. Denis ThatcherHe thinks sometimes … . he says: “Oh black again dear!” I say: “Well, yes, I think it is perhaps safest.”
I changed you know. The first year I did the Guildhall Banquet, I went in a much lighter colour and then I thought, no, I am going to be quite a long time, I had better change into the black. I got a formula there: a little black velvet jacket and various different skirts with it.
That is why he loves this one. He is so pleased when I wear an evening dress that is in colour or if I wear that one. So one or two are for him, in a colour, because they are more feminine.
[Re-take:]
Angela Ruth, BBC
Is there anything here, Prime Minister, that your husband particularly likes?
Prime Minister
Oh yes, Denis Thatcherhe loves the colours and he loves pretty clothes. So much I am in very tailored clothes, and he loves this one, for example. It is colour and it has just a little bit more prettiness and we did concentrate on really rather nice buttons, and so when I came out in this he said: “Oh thank goodness” because sometimes he says: “Oh, not black again dear!” But there you are, that is the job. That is the job that demands it, and he also loves this one too but again, it is a colour. They are [end p15] plain cut but the colour … so often, you see, you do not need an elaborate dress, because the fabric carries the dress. The fabric is the beauty of it.
Angela Ruth, BBC
Does he ever help you choose your clothes?
Prime Minister
No. I do not think we ever would have time for that.
Angela Ruth, BBC
And does anybody advise you? Do you have an adviser?
Prime Minister
The dressmaker I have is absolutely marvellous. She knows the fabrics and she knows and she knows what cut, because sometimes it is no good getting a fabric and saying: “I am going to have that dress!” Sometimes, that fabric will not go for that dress.
Angela Ruth, BBC
You do not have anyone from a fashion magazine helping you or anything like that?
Looking at your clothes here, it would seem that you have a kind of uniform of your own. Is that meant to be sort of equivalent to your male colleagues? [end p16]
Prime Minister
I suppose it is really, because they are wearing a suit and different shirts and sometimes the shirts vary these days and they get their colour with the tie and basically, if you look along … that is the nearest thing I have to a man's suit in a way. I wore that … that is Mansfield … I wore that for Polaris … but otherwise, really, this is my suit and my shirt. That is my suit and several shirts. Here is the navy one with one or two shirts. Here is the black with three or four shirts to give a different mood, and that is the most economical way of dressing and the best way, because you have the quiet tailored elegant outline and the colour here.
Angela Ruth, BBC
I know your aim is not to be a fashion leader. What is it?
Prime Minister
It is not my job to be a fashion leader, but it is my job not to be obviously out of fashion or obviously wrongly dressed and I must never be mutton dressed as lamb, never.
So you see there are quite a lot of things that you have to do, and basically, you go for as good quality fabric, as good cut and as plain as you can afford, and often that is by the far the best and by far the most lasting.
I used at one time to think: “Oh, it will last twenty years!” but I see slight changes in length, slight changes in length of jacket, in shoulders and lapels do occur, I would think about once every seven years.
Angela Ruth, BBC
Are you affected in any way by security? I mean do you ever have to wear protective…
Prime Minister
No. So far, I am not affected by security.
I think there is one other thing I just ought to say about dressing, again which I learned. I think accessories do matter a very great deal, because they can change a whole dress. You know, I am mostly wearing pearls. Sometimes they are longer, sometimes they are shorter. I wear them not only because pearls have been the thing for an Englishwoman for years, but they have a sort of luminescence about them, and particularly pearl ear-rings, and they do just give your face a little lift, so they are not only worn to wear something but I choose pearls because they just have that extra quality.
Angela Ruth, BBC
Do you ever regret that you do not have the same time as other women to go shopping, to have the pleasure of going to Marks and Spencers, buying your underwear, and that sort of thing?
[end p17]Prime Minister
No. I do go to Marks and Spencers quite a good deal, or they very kindly send things in. They are marvellous. Their cut is excellent and they have now got all kinds of colours.
Angela Ruth, BBC
Do you like their under-clothes, like the rest of Britain?
Prime Minister
That is Marks and Sparks, excellent cut, absolutely superb linen, very very good, but they very kindly send things in, so do other people, and it is an enormous time-saver.
And I will tell you what happens in my life. You have to make decisions very quickly, but you do come to know what suits you and what does not. Of course, you make the odd mistake, and sometimes they will bring a lovely [illegible word] and I say, “Back. It will look dreadful on camera!”
Angela Ruth, BBC
Finally, Mrs. Thatcher, a lot of people I have talked to have said how much they admire your clothes. Is there anybody in public life whose clothes you really admire?
Prime Minister
Goodness me! You ask me that so very quickly. I see some absolutely beautiful clothes. I think it would be very [end p18] dangerous for me to mention anyone, but I could mention someone from the past, from my young days. Do you remember the Begum Aga Khan who in my younger days always used to come to Ascot? And she was not a slim lady, but she was always superbly dressed in very tailored clothes. Do you remember?
Angela Ruth, BBC
I do.
Prime Minister
Very tailored clothes and a lovely big hat. And I always used to look and think she is the most elegant person.
Lady Diana Duff Cooper, she was superbly elegant, superlatively elegant and, of course—I would not mention anyone present—but you know, Princess Marina was supremely elegant. I dare not mention anyone from the present time. I should be in hot water for who I had not mentioned if I did.
Angela Ruth, BBC
Well, thank you very much indeed. It was really lovely. Thank you so much.