Radio Interview for BBC Radio 4 Today

John Timpson, BBC

Well, the parliamentary session is approaching its closing weeks, largely dominated recently by events in South Africa, culminating in the Foreign Secretary's mission, which he starts today on behalf of the EEC countries.

I am at Downing Street with the Prime Minister, Mrs. Thatcher.

Prime Minister, may I deal with Sir Geoffrey 's mission first? It is looking increasingly difficult. We had President Botha delaying his meeting with Sir Geoffrey, the ANC will not meet him at all, Mrs. Mandela says the visit is pointless. Do you see any real hope of him achieving the EEC's object of establishing conditions in which dialogue can commence?

Prime Minister

Yes, I do, and quite clearly the Heads of the other eleven members of the Community do, otherwise they would not have asked him Geoffrey Howehim to go. Of course, one always comes up against preliminary [end p1] difficulties but you know, a meeting has been fixed with President Botha as we always expected it would be. That is good.

I am sorry if the ANC say they are not going to meet Sir Geoffrey Howe, because I think it is important that they do, in order to see whether conditions can be established for negotiations to take place. That is the only way it is going to be settled.

John Timpson, BBC

But the climate does not look terribly hopeful. If indeed, he does not achieve his object, would you agree in any circumstances to the EEC taking economic sanctions?

Prime Minister

Well, you know what the EEC said; it is making contingency plans at the end of three months, but the imposition of further sanctions would not be automatic. We would consider the position.

I think, you know, people just think of sanctions as some sort of object. They are not just some sort of object without effect. They are something which has a deep effect on people's lives, on whether they have a job, on whether they are able to feed their children.

You have heard what recently has been said: that if sanctions were imposed, there would be many many hundreds and thousands of more starving children in southern Africa. I do not want that. I would not have thought many people did. They are [end p2] not just something abstract—they are something which have a deep effect on the lives of families in South Africa, the lives of families in Europe and many other people.

John Timpson, BBC

We have also heard people like Bishop Tutu and the ANC saying that their followers would be prepared to accept extra sacrifices and indeed, things could have been much worse than they are now.

Prime Minister

Well, it always amazes me that they say that, because many many black South Africans, as you know—you have Chief Buthelezi who after all is chief of seven million Zulus saying: “Please do not put on sanctions!” You have heard many people in South Africa who fought apartheid for years, they have made it their life's job to fight apartheid, saying: “Please do not put on sanctions!” and this is why, when people talk to me about it. I try literally to work it through with the effect on families, that we here in No. 10 Downing Street or in Brussels in Europe, comfortable, well looked after, should sit down round a table and say that hundreds of thousands of people should lose their jobs although they have got reasonable jobs, just on our say-so, is to me utterly repugnant. [end p3]

John Timpson, BBC

But it is not only they who say it surely? The Front Line States also say it, who Sir Geoffrey will be seeing, and indeed, for what worth one can put on it, there was in fact a Mori poll in South Africa amongst the black people there where 77%; said that sanctions should be imposed.

Prime Minister

I would not accept the result of a Mori poll, a comparative few, on such an important subject as that and among so many people. I think many of them would feel they had to say what they were expected to say. You have seen the way in which some of the affairs are conducted in the black townships. You have heard of the “necklace”, from which I totally and utterly recoil, but let us return to the Front Line States.

I think many of them realise that to keep open, for example, Beit Bridge, which is their only road frequently to the outside world which as you know goes from Zimbabwe to South Africa, which is the road through which their raw materials, through which their exports come out for sale and the road through which the imports go in. If that were closed, it would have a devastating effect among their peoples and I think that they would somehow expect that that would be kept open because they would say that that was necessary to keep the standard of living of their people going, and once you start to say that you are considering the practical effect of sanctions on your people. Now, I would far [end p4] rather talk on that, because I think when we do that, people are not nearly so keen on punitive economic sanctions.

John Timpson, BBC

Well, nevertheless, they have spoken very strongly in favour of them and so have other members of the Commonwealth. Now you have this Commonwealth summit meeting coming up. If you are still against sanctions at that stage, what sort of reception do you think you will get?

Prime Minister

I am and remain against punitive economic sanctions, general economic sanctions. Every government in power in this country, in power, with the responsibilities of power, has been against general economic sanctions, has voted the same way in the United Nations, has said general economic sanctions would not achieve their effect and would hurt the very people we are trying to help. The whole of Europe is against general economic sanctions. Almost everyone in responsible positions of power in the western industrialised world is against general economic sanctions, so let there be no doubt about that.

John Timpson, BBC

I was really talking about the Commonwealth. [end p5]

Prime Minister

Well, the Commonwealth, when we come and talk again to the Commonwealth …   . I think last time the Commonwealth were very concerned that we show what they call signals or gestures of disapproval of South African policy of apartheid. Now that I understand. That they were using signal sanctions, apart from defence sanctions which of course are put on for wholly another reason and we agree with those and operate them, as a gesture, a signal to South Africa that the world thoroughly disapproves of the system of apartheid and wants it to end, but to go from there to having hundreds of thousands of people out of work with no social security system, seems to me cold and callous.

John Timpson, BBC

So that even though President Kaunda, for instance, talks of leaving the Commonwealth unless something is done you would not change?

Prime Minister

Look! I have worked very closely with President Kaunda. He and I worked extremely closely at the Lusaka Commonwealth Conference when he was in the Chair—quite a brilliant piece of chairmanship—and, as you know, gave to Britain, myself as Prime Minister, Lord Carrington as Foreign Secretary, the duty and the responsibility of bringing Rhodesia, as she was then, to full legal independence under a democratic system. We kept completely in [end p6] touch with leaders of the Commonwealth. We also kept in touch with leaders of South Africa, all of whom were most helpful, in trying to bring Zimbabwe to a solution, and I have great respect for him, and I am sure we will talk it over and he knows that the Commonwealth is strong enough to with stand many things, including any differences of this, and he is a great Commonwealth man and I haved great faith that the Commonwealth will endure.

John Timpson, BBC

Would you accept any idea then of gestures—you have mentioned gestures. Is there not any gesture which you would accept, perhaps tightening up on South Africa's debts?

Prime Minister

Well as you know, at the last Commonwealth Conference, we agreed that there should be no more Government-Government loans, so that has in fact been put into commission. That was one of the things that after the Europeans had met and agreed on our particular group of measures, we then went to the Commonwealth and they wanted some extra ones and that was one of them. No Government-to-Government debt, so that has already been dealt with.

John Timpson, BBC

But the debts we pay have. [end p7]

Prime Minister

But the debts which they already have …

Prime Minister

…   . government loans. At you know, at that time they were finding difficulty in repaying some of their debts, most of them, of course, are not Government to Government loans or debts; most of them are ordinary commercial loans at ordinary commercial banks.

John Timpson, BBC

Well, let us see if we may leave South Africa and turn to domestic matters. The Chancellor still has hopes of further tax cuts in due course, but do you not get the impression that if there is money to spare then a great many people, including people in your own party, prefer to see it spent on services like health, education, rather than reducing tax?

Prime Minister

Well, of course, a great deal more has been spent on services like health, and a great deal more per pupil in the education system, because when you have a system of growth as we have for the last five years, there has been some extra money to go into health and law and order and defence and we are still spending more per pupil in education than ever before and some money for tax outs. [end p8]

Look, when people come at me for tax cuts, I usually say to them “I guess that you are in the upper half of incomes and possibly in the upper quarter” because you know full well that people on average incomes and below average, still in my view pay far too much in tax. You take a widow or a nurse who is on about £150 a week. They will pay away $45 a week in tax and social security and then if they are in work they will come along and say: “My net take-home pay is not enough; I want higher pay!” and so they are compensating for the high tax which they are paying by demanding higher pay.

Now in industries, you know, that goes straight into costs and can sometimes make our goods uncompetitive, but the message is the same. They are saying: “Please! My net take-home pay we do not think is enough!” and either you can deal with that by cutting taxation, which does not go into industrial costs, or by them demanding increases in pay which in the end put them out of a job.

So just let us remember, yes, some of the top people on top salaries have had considerable reductions in taxation, but there are many many people—indeed 40%; you know are below average earnings—and they really deserve a fair deal too.

John Timpson, BBC

May I just quote one of your own backbenchers, Mr. Malcolm Thornton, speaking in a debate in May, who said: “The standard of [end p9] much of our housing, many of our schools and public buildings and roads add up to a pretty sorry saga. There is increasing public concern over these matters!”

Prime Minister

That is not the amount of public expenditure, it is the direction, because as you know, the amount of public expenditure has gone up very considerably. Indeed, in some ways rather more than we had hoped. We had hoped to be able to constrain it more, give people more of their own earnings to keep in their own pockets. That is whether people choose to spend more on current expenditure or whether they choose to spend more on capital. I wish that we would in fact spend more on capital. I wish that we would in fact spend more on capital because I believe in the proper maintenance of buildings, but you know, whatever you turn to, you will find that this Government has spent more on the fabric of the health service, on hospitals. Far more than our predecessors. It was they who cut capital expenditure. Far many more new hospitals have been built under this Government. We have done far better on roads and we have put a good deal into the renovation of council houses—far more than previous governments—so just look at the credentials of some of those who are criticising us. They were pretty bad credentials on capital and repair expenditure. Ours are good. [end p10]

John Timpson, BBC

But do you not feel that there is still an awful lot to be done before you can convince the majority of the people that you are the caring Government that you claim to be?

Prime Minister

Do you know, people who talk most about caring are not often those who do most about it. This Government, if you are judging caring by what has happened in the health service, by what has happened to pensioners and in fact, you know, the pension buys more than it ever did under any previous government.

Yes, one would wish to do more but do not forget every penny the Government spends does not come from Government—it comes out of the pockets of the people who are earning this country's living, and we have to be fair to all of them.

And let me say this: any government, any business, any family, has to live within certain budgetary constraints and if it talks or acts as if it can just spend ad lib, as if there were no tomorrow, it will be a bad government, a bad business, or it will soon get into trouble. Let us have that firmly in front of us.

Yes, you do want a government that is prudent. That is the way this Government has managed our financial affairs and we shall go on being prudent and anyone who gives you the impression they have only got to get up and say: “Please, I want more spent” can find it. Well, look back at the record of the last government. It very nearly landed this country into bankruptcy. [end p11]

John Timpson, BBC

And yet, according to the polls, you still have not convinced people of these facts. You still have a Labour leader ahead of you and the Alliance are only just behind you according to the recent polls.

Prime Minister

Let me get out the facts once again. The health service has never been better than it is under this Government. Let me just give you one figure. We are in No. 10 Downing Street. The day I walked in here, the taxpayers of Britain were paying £7.¾ billion to keep the health service going. Today, they are paying per year £18.¾ billion to keep the health service going and there are far more doctors, far more nurses, far more patients being treated, far more operations on things like heart, kidney problems, hip and so on. Now that is way way way above inflation. It is a measure of the priority which we have given to the health service.

I think we must make the facts talk a little bit more, because they should talk far louder than the propaganda. We do not talk so much about our achievements. Perhaps we should. But those are the facts. It is a very good record and it was done by giving priority to defence, law and order, and also the health service.

John Timpson, BBC

Well then, how long do you think it will take, Prime Minister, to convince people of these facts to such an extent that [end p12] you feel that it is an appropriate time to put it to the test?

Prime Minister

Look! The maximum period between elections is five years. We can go the full five years which would be about June 1988. You never quite know when you are going to have an election until you come up to some of the hurdles which you look at and say: “Shall we go now or shall we go on?”

Yes, I have a good deal more of the actual facts to get across. I sometimes listen to you and think: “My goodness me. I wish could ring up and say: Look, have you taken into account some of these facts?” Our record is a very good one.

Yes, we have to try to get more people into jobs. That is done not by government spending the people's money, but by people taking advantage of opportunities to build more small businesses, more self-employed, to build the seed corn of the big companies in the future, and it is happening, and that is good.

John Timpson, BBC

But do you really expect to see any substantial change in unemployment levels by the time of the next election?

Prime Minister

You know, a million new jobs have been created over the last three years. Under normal circumstances, you would have said [end p13] that that would have been enough to make inroads on the unemployment register, but you know, there are so many school-leavers over a period of ten years because of the baby boom of the sixties that we have more coming on to the labour market and wanting jobs, which is why we have not yet made inroads into the unemployment register, and also many many more married women are wanting work and why shouldn't they? They are working part-time. So we have not made inroads yet, but if we go on creating jobs, or the people go on creating jobs at the rate we have, then we should be able to make inroads into the numbers of unemployed, which is our dearest and greatest wish.

John Timpson, BBC

And you would hope to do that before the next election?

Prime Minister

I am very slow about making forecasts. What I am saying is we are going on with the same policies that helped to create those million net new jobs in the last three years.

John Timpson, BBC

Could I just ask in our closing minute: if you lost the next election, Prime Minister, would you consider resigning? [end p14]

Prime Minister

Look! I am not talking about losing any election. I am talking about winning it because I believe passionately that the policies we are putting forward are right for Britain, we shall relaunch them and have more new exciting ones as we come up to the election. Of course we will. Any business that has been doing well does not stop. It goes on. It goes on keeping the things going that made it a good business and constantly launching new products and giving a new vision of the future. That is exactly what we shall do.

John Timpson, BBC

So you have given no thought yet of any possible successor? I remember Mr. Callaghan used to say that it was part of a leader's job to provide three or four ministers who would be able to stand it.

Prime Minister

There are many possible successors. It would be for the Party to choose, not for me.

John Timpson, BBC

Prime Minister, thank you.

Prime Minister

Pleasure.