Speeches, etc.

Margaret Thatcher

TV Interview for BBC (Hague European Council)

Document type: Speeches, interviews, etc.
Venue: European Council Press Centre, Ministry of Agriculture, The Hague
Source: Thatcher Archive: COI transcript
Journalist: John Simpson, BBC
Editorial comments:

Interviews probably followed the Press Conference which was due to begin at 1620.

Importance ranking: Major
Word count: 1331
Themes: Trade, Foreign policy (Africa), Commonwealth (South Africa), European Union (general), British policy towards South Africa, British relations with France, British relations with Italy, British relations with Netherlands, British relations with the Federal Republic of Germany

John Simpson, BBC

Prime Minister, surely an awful lot of people are going to look at what you have agreed here and say: “This is just a classic fudge. They have not done anything that you can write down on the back of a cigarette packet and what is more they seem to be disagreeing already about what they have decided.”

Prime Minister

No, I do not think so. I realise you might say that. It is a constructive, measured piece of work. It does not hit out at anyone, but it is much more likely to achieve the desired result, which is peaceful change in South Africa by negotiation. No, that is not exciting, but it is the right way to go if you want to achieve the result.

John Simpson, BBC

Dr. Lubbers, who is the President at this meeting, the Chairman of it, he is the Dutch Prime Minister, and he should know what he is talking about; he says that you and [end p1] everyone around the table agreed with him that if Sir Geoffrey made no progress and the measures which you talked about were invoked, you would not be able to say: “Yes, I agreed at the Hague, but I do not agree now.”

Prime Minister

We wrote down what we agreed. It is all in a communique word-for-word. There are twelve countries there and there are twenty-four people, that is to say a prime minister and foreign secretary or president representing each. I am not going to try to put a gloss on the words. They are down in the communique for everyone to read.

John Simpson, BBC

But the man who was in charge of the meeting said that you agreed that yes, there was some sort of automaticity.

Prime Minister

No, there is nothing which resembles an automatic result. There is nothing which resembles an ultimatum. Let me read the words to which we all put our names and so which no-one can …   . from: After requiring the release of Nelson Mandela unconditionally and lifting a ban on the African National Congress, it goes on to say—and these are the actual words as distinct from the interpretation—“In the [end p2] meantime, in the next three months, the Community will enter into consultations with the other industrialised countries on further measures which might be needed, covering in particular a ban on new investments, the import of coal, iron, steel and gold coins from South Africa, which might be needed” so there is no ultimatum; there is nothing automatic about it. It is wise to enter into consultations with other countries, wise to consult about particular measures. It is good contingency planning.

John Simpson, BBC

But is it not part of good politics to be able to indicate, no matter how delicately, that you have got a lever to use on somebody else to make them change their mind?

Prime Minister

It is not good politics. It is not good human relations. It is not good psychology, to go and negotiate with someone in the position of South Africa, a strong economy, many natural resources, a large coastline, by threatening them that unless you do this we will do that. That is not the way, I believe, to get results. It may make good television. It may make good differences between countries. It does not make for achieving the result.

There are many people, I think, who share the view [end p3] of what I believe was the majority view there, that if you try to hit out or present an ultimatum, then you are likely to meet with just exactly the opposite response from that which you wish to achieve.

John Simpson, BBC

Does Sir Geoffrey realistically have very much of a good chance of persuading the South African Government to do these very difficult things?

Prime Minister

If anyone has a chance, it is Geoffrey HoweGeoffrey. He is an extremely able person, an extremely skilled diplomat, very very experienced, knows the Commonwealth extremely well as well as the Community, knows the United States very well, and knows Japan well, the other industrialised countries. If anyone can get through it is Geoffrey Howe, and therefore, we have great confidence in him and wish him well on this very important mission.

John Simpson, BBC

You are going to have a lot of trouble though aren't you over the next few weeks from Commonwealth governments who have already been very critical of the way that you have handled the South African issue. [end p4]

Prime Minister

We shall have a lot of trouble whatever happens, but we chose is the best way to try to get the result we want: an end to apartheid, trying to do it constructively, trying to do it by negotiation, trying to bring about an end to violence. I think most people would say: “We hope you succeed!”

John Simpson, BBC

Rightly or wrongly though, Prime Minister, over the last few months, Britain has got the reputation—and I say rightly or wrongly—of being South Africa's protector in the world. Is that the kind of signal you think is a good one to go out?

Prime Minister

We have made abundantly clear so many times we hate apartheid, we want it to end. We also detest violence and we want apartheid to end peaceably. Yes, we have spoken with President Botha, we have done everything possible to bring to an end things like enforced settlements—they have come to an end—job reservation—it has come to an end—the pass laws—legislation has been passed to end them—the ban on mixed marriages—legislation has been passed to end that. There is practically no apartheid in sport. Those things are good. They are not yet sufficient. They are steps—not big enough ones—but in the right direction. [end p5]

I believe that the majority of people in South Africa, including the majority of white South Africans who have nowhere else to go, are ready for the requisite change. I think the majority want to bring about negotiations, but in doing it they naturally want to feel they have the support and confidence of the rest of the world. We are trying to help that process, trying to see that more innocent lives are not taken, trying to find the right, the restrained, the constructive way through.

John Simpson, BBC

For a long time now, people have been using expressions like “Five minutes to midnight for South Africa”. Is it not getting really a little bit too late to simply talk about possible ways of change there?

Prime Minister

No, it is not. No matter how much violence, in the end you have got to negotiate, so you might just as well drop the violence and negotiate now. That is the message that we are trying to bring and I think it is the message the western world and the Commonwealth is trying to bring to South Africa. I think it is a message which is finding a larger and larger response among all people in South Africa and that, I think, [end p6] is the hope that we might succeed now where there have not been success before.

John Simpson, BBC

Because of the violence?

Prime Minister

No, because you have got more and more people in South Africa realising that now is the time for change. I think South Africa was really very shocked when she was not able to meet some of her debts on time. I think that was a great shock to the commercial and business community. I think they realised things cannot go on.

Many of them have been working for an end to apartheid for a long long time. A lot of industry has been working for it. Many many well-known names and politicians. Most of those are against sanctions because they say they will be damaging and not helpful, so let us go along with the way they want to go. Chief Buthelezi is against sanctions. He, after all, is head of the largest group of black South Africans. Let us try that way with really renewed and intensified urgency and hope that it finds the response on all sides to end apartheid. [end p7]

We cannot say what kind of government they should have. They have to decide that and we wish them well in their discussions.