Alison Macdonald, Woman
I wanted to ask you, Mrs. Thatcher, whether you are a caring person.
Prime Minister
Yes, I think and hope and believe so, but I do not necessarily believe that people are most caring who talk about themselves being caring most, and that is what always strikes me as strange.
We always think very much and are very thoughtful about our staff here. We try to be very thoughtful to children; we try to be very thoughtful for anyone who comes here who is disabled and inviting people here.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
Yes, I have heard that. [end p1]
Prime Minister
The other morning, we had deaf children here—Wednesday morning—then we went up to Elizabeth Garrett Anderson. Both were absolutely fascinating; but we do not necessarily shout it from the housetops.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
There is a difference between words and actions.
Prime Minister
That is right.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
In your personal life, do you see yourself as a caring personality—I mean towards your family and so on?
Prime Minister
I should be most upset if I were anything other than thoughtful about their needs and kind in most of the things that one does. Sometimes, of course, you have to be very firm, but you do not deal best for someone if you just mollycoddle them. [end p2]
Alison Macdonald, Woman
Regarding family matters, obviously you are a mother of twins and you have been married for many years. What sort of bearing or influence has that had on you as a politician?
Prime Minister
A very practical one, very practical indeed. But first, as I have often made clear, I have been lucky in having a home in London, a constituency in the London area, Westminster in the London area, and I have always been the first to say that I do not think I could have become a Member of Parliament if I had had to leave the family and come down to London mid-week. I just could not, because I would have felt that I was not doing my duty by the children and I would have felt that they were missing me and we were both missing one another. So in a way, one's life has constantly been arranged—“Well now look! If anything happens, can I get back quickly if there is an emergency?” and one has always understood therefore, if anyone working with one has an emergency, that always takes first place and I have always said: “Look, if anything is wrong, an upset upset with your family, that must come first—somehow we will cope” and you know, people do, whether it is man or woman, and you always are constantly thinking forward if you have a family; what is life going to be like in twenty years' time for them, and this is one thing where I do think women perhaps have a longer perspective. “What sort of world are my children going to come into?” [end p3]
Alison Macdonald, Woman
What do you wish for your own children, looking into the future generally?
Prime Minister
What you wish for your own children, obviously, is that they take advantage of the opportunities, because you cannot live their lives for them. You try to give them maximum opportunities. I hope that they have a home of their own. Obviously, I would like some grandchildren—they are neither of them married yet—but obviously you wish them to have a home of their own and obviously you wish them satisfaction in their job and many friends, in a peaceful world, but a world that is peaceful because we are strong enough to defend our own freedoms; and a world in which everyone rises to their responsibilities. These days you hear so much of “I have a right to this, this and this!” but no-one has any right unless someone else has met the obligations.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
Mrs. Thatcher, would you mind me interrupting and asking why you would like grandchildren, because I think that is interesting.
Prime Minister
Well, of course one would. Again, because you are thinking somehow of the future and I think it would just be marvellous to have young children about the place. [end p4]
Alison Macdonald, Woman
Would you have very much time for them. I mean as a Prime Minister?
Prime Minister
You do not have a great deal of time, no, but you are often there if your young marrieds want to get away for a time. You can always arrange some time for very important things. If you arrange your time well, you can always arrange some time for it. I mean, it may be in the Recesses, it may be the odd week-end, but it is marvellous to have the real youngsters around.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
Yes, I think so. I am looking forward to my own, actually, when I get round to having some, but I was wondering actually, I mean I can understand it has always been very much a responsibility of finding time for your career and also finding time for the children because one has the twin responsibilities if you like; did it ever occur to you that your husband might have helped out more? This is the modern way of looking at things.
Prime Minister
[end p5] Denis ThatcherHe is absolutely marvellous with children and we have always been very close. No, he is absolutely terrific. I could not have done it without him.
You cannot tell other families what to do. I think that each husband and wife has to work it out for themselves as to what suits them, according to the jobs they are doing. You cannot just set any general rule save that they have to work it out for themselves.
But you know, of course, far many more women are going to keep on their careers these days. I do notice that there is quite a change that has come over the approach of young women in this respect and they have got to work it out for themselves with their husbands and how much help they can afford to have, because if you are not there yourself you have got to arrange that someone is and that the right things are done and it is not a whole stream of people but it is someone in whom the children have confidence.
Life was very much easier, you know, when grandma was round the corner, but life is not always like that now.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
From time to time, Mrs. Thatcher, your family has been affected by your status as a politician. I am thinking, for example, of the trouble that Mark has been having in America over accommodation. I mean, does it affect you when they lose out?
Prime Minister
Yes it does. It is very very rough on them and I am only too painfully conscious because most of us could make our mistakes, you know, not in the limelight, or most of us could have things happen to us not in the limelight, but I am afraid that has never been the case with them. Anything that happens to them tends to be in the papers. I do say there are sometimes a lot of penalties in being related to me.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
I know that you had a very secure and happy and stable home life yourself, being particularly close to your father, I think. What sort of things did you learn from your parents or what sort of qualities did you derive from them?
Prime Minister
First, you take part in the life of a community; very much so. We always had many friends and you always did your bit for the community of which you are a part, and my Alfred Robertsfather did and my Beatrice Robertsmother did, so therefore they were always very very active.
Now, again, they were different days, and you have to be careful to remember how different they were. There was no television, so you did entertain yourselves much more—it might have been by playing the piano, playing music or you went out to tea with others and they came back to you. You discussed things across generations a great deal. [end p6]
You know, sometimes I think that television is a great advantage in some ways, but you have to watch the things it stops, and sometimes you know, you find that parents and children do not necessarily discuss things in the same way as we used to.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
Do you think television has actually had an active ban on that?
Prime Minister
I think in some families, yes it has, because it is only too easy when the children come in and the mother is busy getting tea ready, she is probably getting supper ready at a similar time, just to sit children down at television and not really to have time to talk, and I think it is tremendously important to talk with them.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
So do I. Not just talking; there is also games and cards.
Prime Minister
Yes, of course. We did all of that. You know, there was Scrabble, there was Monopoly.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
I often wonder whether the quality of childhood has not diminished between, shall we say, the post-war years and now. [end p7]
Prime Minister
I think it is a great mistake if you just live live in horizontal layers. You know, that you only really talk to your own age group. You have got to have talking across age groups and of course that was the marvellous thing about having grandmas close by, because they often have more time to be with the children. Phoebe StephensonMy grandmother lived with us and, you know, they would often talk to you about what happened in times past. It was always very interesting.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
Which is something you will be able to do with your own grandchildren.
Prime Minister
I hope, so, yes.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
I was wondering though if you actually derived any sort of personal qualities which you could directly attribute to your parents; what they taught you. I mean, I could say what my parents taught me certain sorts of qualities. They might be similar to the ones that your parents might have given to you. [end p8]
Prime Minister
I think you just gain, really, your whole approach to life from them. You really do. Your whole approach to life. I think, comes first from your family and, of course, that has an impact and influence on you long before you go to school. It is really your home and school and your friends. I think you derive your whole approach and attitude from that. We were always taught to work and to work very hard. Cleanliness was next to godliness. Making up your own mind about things. My Alfred Robertsfather had not had a tremendously good education although he had a first-class brain and therefore he was very anxious that we should read and discuss and make up our own minds about things.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
Do you know, my favourite quote from you is not a political quote. It is something I heard a long time ago, maybe on TV, where you said that one of the things your father had instilled into you was never to run with the herd just for the sake of it.
Prime Minister
That is right. You make up your mind, yes. Do not do something just because other people are doing it. Make up your own mind and then try to persuade them and it is quite a tough thing to do. It was really think things out for yourself. [end p9]
Alison Macdonald, Woman
Yes, I mean, that is a damn good rule isn't it really?
Prime Minister
It is, but you cannot always live up to it I am afraid.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
Are there any particular experiences that have formed you? Any sort of landmark experiences in your life you would select out?
Prime Minister
It is always very difficult. I remember, my Alfred Robertsfather and I used to go on walks quite a bit, particularly when I would be studying for exams, you know, towards the end of the day we would just go out in summer for just a walk in the evening and then talk about many things. Again, do not forget I was a war-time child and perhaps one had a heightened awareness of the sacrifices other people were making for oneself. We were in a part of the country where bombers used to go out and I suppose we therefore really did talk a great deal about this. You listened to radio a great deal. I can always remember Sunday evening, there used to be a 9 o'clock talk on radio, sometimes by J. B. Priestley, sometimes by Quentin Reynolds. I always used to listen to it. It was somehow a way in which we felt the nation gathered together to listen to some of these things, so we were always aware of being a part of something that is very much bigger and greater, and we were always very much aware that we in Britain had a certain character. I can [end p10] remember always being brought up on the idea that we were capable of taking our own initiative. You know, we did not have to be told what to do.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
It sometimes seems to me that the character of the British has actually changed quite a lot since those war years.
Prime Minister
I wonder! I wonder! In some respects you mean? I think there is a great deal there. You know, if ever anything goes wrong, you look at the wealth of goodwill and practical help that we still give, and it is still there. It is still there.
Certainly, what you are thinking of is the people who say: “I am entitled to this, this and this!” without necessarily saying: “I also have to provide this, this and this!”
Alison Macdonald, Woman
That is exactly what I meant. I mean, what was in the back of my mind was all right, no responsibilities.
Prime Minister
A kind of entitlement society.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
Yes. [end p11]
Prime Minister
But you see, there are so many people who meet their responsibilities, and look at the whole Voluntary Movement in this country. I think it is still there.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
Oh it is still there, but is it there as much as it used to be forty or fifty years ago? And I only know this from talking to my parents and so on. Society was different.
Prime Minister
One of the things that always worries me is when you have some young people leaving school, not always being able to find a job. Sometimes they choose to leave school when they could stay on and it is always how to mobilise them and usually it depends upon getting to someone whom they trust, to do something positive. So much in life depends really upon getting together with someone you trust who can have time to talk to you and encourage you to do the right things and go the right way, because I do think people really want someone to talk to; someone who is fundamentally interested in them and in their future and they need that far more than more and money being piled on.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
Yes, quite. [end p12]
Prime Minister
So often, money can be a substitute.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
It comes back to caring doesn't it?
Prime Minister
Yes it does.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
It is very important to feel that somebody cares for you.
Prime Minister
Taking the trouble to sit down and talk to them.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
You strike me as being a very caring person. You have quite often been described as the opposite. I mean, I think, for example, of Mr. Healey 's very rude remark last week about “a chilling indifference to human suffering”. There seems to me often to be a gap between the reality of people—politicians—and the image that they present.
Prime Minister
There are the images some people try to paint of you. [end p13]
Alison Macdonald, Woman
The image somehow received by the nation.
Prime Minister
You have to be very firm. Of course you have to be very firm. That does not mean you are hard.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
No, of course not, but do you actually feel that there is this gap?
Prime Minister
Some people have deliberately tried to paint that image, yes. But you see, some of them just equate caring with pouring out more and more cash benefits and I would not say that.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
Do you ever feel misunderstood and when you pick up the “Daily Mirror”, shall we say, and you see something like Mr. Healey's speech headlined? You must think: “This is not me!”
Prime Minister
Yes, but I know why they are doing it. They are trying to give the false image. You see, the fact is they cannot really argue with the policies so they try to create a false image. I am afraid that is just part of politics. One thing you simply must not do in politics is [end p14] resent these things. I am afraid they happen and frequently, if I see something about me, I just do not read it, because I know it is going to hurt. I know it is going to hurt and that would occupy my mind and then that would stop me from taking some of the decisions or getting down to some of the work which I really have to do that day.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
Yes, it has always puzzled me that, because I know that if it were me and please God, I will never be so famous as you are. …
Prime Minister
I do not know anyone in politics who is not hurt by some of these things, even though they might seem to be quite tough on the outside.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
When you see things which are sort of mildly critical in the more satirical vein, like “Spitting Image”, I mean, do you enjoy that sort of thing?
Prime Minister
I do not watch “Spitting Image”.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
You have never seen it? [end p15]
Prime Minister
I just saw a trailer of it. No, I just do not watch it. Is it funny? I love to watch “Yes, Minister”. I think that is one of my favourite programmes.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
It is much cleverer satire. One thing that really fascinates me: if you are in an elevated political position, your time is so consumed, you live in a marvellous place like this.
Prime Minister
Well look! These are the official rooms. We do not live here.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
Are you upstairs?
Prime Minister
Yes, we live in a very comfortable flat upstairs which is small and comfortable.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
And quite homely, I imagine.
Prime Minister
Yes, that is right. [end p16]
Alison Macdonald, Woman
How on earth do you actually keep in touch with ordinary people, the man-in-the-street?
Prime Minister
First the masses of correspondence; secondly, you are out and about in your constituency; third, you are out and about quite a lot. You just do not stick in here.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
Is it quite important to you, say if you are out making a visit to a supermarket or a factory or whatever, to actually break out of the schedule from time to time and say: “Hallo! Who are you?”
Prime Minister
Yes, frequently I dash across, breaking out of it, dashing across and talking, but also I still have my own interview evenings in the constituency and, of course, we get a fantastic amount of correspondence. Do not forget I am out and about a great deal.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
Yes, I know you are. Talking again of the way that people appear, do you think your physical presentation is very important if you are a politician? For example, the sort of clothes you wear and the way you do your hair and everything? [end p17]
Prime Minister
I think the first impression that people have of you is how you look and therefore it is important that if possible you look neat and tidy; and certainly, when you go overseas you are representing your country and therefore your appearance does matter and therefore one tries to be very quietly dressed.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
But people are still continuing to describe you as a sex symbol.
Prime Minister
What, as a woman prime minister as it were?
Alison Macdonald, Woman
I suppose so, yes.
Prime Minister
I wish they could forget it.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
Yes, it seems to be slightly irrelevant.
Prime Minister
It is just absurd. I am a prime minister just really like any other prime minister. Certainly in the sense that it gives hope to many other women that they can reach the top that is true. [end p18]
Alison Macdonald, Woman
Yes, indeed. And, of course, you have actually been Prime Minister now for a record amount of time.
Prime Minister
Continuously yes.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
This century, I am quite certain it is a record actually.
Prime Minister
It does not surprise me that that comes to a woman because in the work we have to do you know it is women that have to keep going come what may.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
Do you think women have got more stamina than men?
Prime Minister
I think so, quite often. You cannot make a universal rule to that effect. Some men have a great deal of stamina and some are unable to cope with a very great deal, but women do just have to turn their hand to and cope, no matter what happens. I think that probably best comes through when you are doing a job like this. [end p19]
Alison Macdonald, Woman
Do you ever think that women are in some way emotionally different from men; they react in a different way?
Prime Minister
I think we are pretty practical. That when you have got a problem, you turn round and say: “Now what is the next thing to do?”
Alison Macdonald, Woman
I think women have both feet on the ground actually.
Prime Minister
I think we are pretty practical. I think one of the reasons why more women do not come into politics is that getting up and making speeches does not come naturally to women in any way.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
No. It can be taught. Look at Emma Nicholson. Super speaker now. I went to the High Fliers at the Barbican.
Prime Minister
Did you? I am told she did it fantastically.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
Brilliant. [end p20]
Prime Minister
But it is not a thing which comes naturally to many women and I think it is something which holds a number of women back. On the other hand, put them on a committee which is deciding what is going to be done and they are absolutely superb.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
But they are very cooperative.
Prime Minister
They are practical.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
Yes, but if you are part of a committee, you cooperate with people around you. I have often watched men trying to take over committees rather than saying: “Well, what do you think about this?”
Prime Minister
They make very good magistrates, marvellous local councillors and we will get more in time coming into politics. I really do hope so, because there are far too few of us. It makes us far too conspicuous.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
There are, of course, an awful lot of pressures on women in Parliament and I am thinking particularly of the news story on Friday, Anna [end p21] McCurley, a very hardworking Tory MP. She actually said that the mechanics of the House had put her under such strain, you know, the impossible hours and so on.
Prime Minister
Yes, unless you have had quite a lot of training and being used to stay up late and working late, it is a completely different timetable of life—a completely different timetable of life.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
So that perhaps is something else that women are going to have to come to terms with.
Prime Minister
I think it applies to some men too, a completely different timetable. It is a very artificial life in very many ways. I have been immensely grateful that my home was in London, my constituency in London and my work in London. That really made all sorts of things possible. Anna, of course, comes from the Glasgow area and, of course, she has, in addition to most other things, leaving home mid-week and therefore bringing all her things down and then the travelling to and back, and that is extra wear and tear, it really is. [end p22]
Alison Macdonald, Woman
Thus spoke a true Scot, the awfulness of living among Sassenachs, which I also suffer from I am afraid.
I did want to ask you, before we ran out of time, firstly, two years ago I was at Brighton. I was not in the hotel that went up; I was in the one next door.
Prime Minister
Yes I know. We had to clear that one too didn't we?
Alison Macdonald, Woman
Yes, we all went out on the Prom together in our nighties, but I am not too affected by it now but it shook me for quite a few months, oddly enough, even though I was not near the blast. Are you sensible of any continuing effect of that now? I mean, how has it actually affected your attitude towards the horror of terrorism in general?
Prime Minister
If you are staying in a hotel or staying somewhere where you might be affected, you do just quickly look around and say: “Now, if anything happens, can I grab things and get out?” I was immensely relieved that night about one thing—that all the lights did not go off, because it would have been acutely difficult for many of the firemen and rescue workers. The lights did not go off. For quite some time, I used to carry a small torch with me because I thought “Well, what would we have [end p23] done if the lights had gone out and we were not able to find our way or look where we were going.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
But did it any way affect your attitude towards policies on terrorism? Did you take it more seriously, for example, or spend more time thinking about it?
Prime Minister
I have always taken it seriously. I mean, some of my early experiences as Prime Minister were going over to Northern Ireland when we had Warrenpoint you know and Lord Mountbatten was murdered. We had Warrenpoint and some terrible things in Northern Ireland, so one has always been very conscious of it.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
And, of course, things like Airey Neave.
Prime Minister
Things like Airey Neave, indeed.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
Profoundly affecting but in a sense you had seen the worst. [end p24]
Prime Minister
I sort of said that first because I will never forget that I had gone up to the constituency that day. I was doing something for motability in which there were cars for the disabled. All of a sudden, they told me the bomb had gone off and that someone had been very badly damaged, and I did not know who. We were very very conscious and, as I say, from personal experience and people around one, about that. I suppose we still are. But you cannot live your life wholly like that. You have just got to go on doing the positive things; you just have to.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
Well, trying to get back, you know, serious political matters, we have got one or two years before the next general election. What sort of things do we still have to achieve over that period? What sort of goals do you think you have scored, taking the Mexican image?
Prime Minister
There is a background for everyone. You have to be able to say: “Look! Our defences are secure by virtue of our own efforts and by virtue of being a staunch ally” because that is the future of your freedom. Second, you have to put as many resources as you can into law and order, because you have to have enough police and you have to have the equipment to support the police and do your bit. Thirdly, a government has to say: “Now look! I want to keep the currency stable,” because if someone saves a pound today, it should be able to buy the same amount in twenty years' time [end p25] or if they put something in for the christening of their children. So that is the duty of government, and then you have got to have fundamental social services.
Now what does one want? One wants more and more people to have their own independence in the sense that they can own their own home. It has always been one of my ambitions that we should be able to save some capital out of income. You know, not many people in this country can do a great deal. In the States they can. Save some capital, because once you are doing that you are starting to think about the future, thinking about future generations. Then also, you can build up your own security, so that when you come to be independent and retired, in addition to your pension, you have got something else which enables you to follow up your own interests and I believe we have all got to be conscious that we live in a community and rise to our own responsibilities. We have a duty on crime prevention, to protect our own homes, not to leave car doors open, and not to leave your windows open, your doors open, and that kind of thing, and voluntary work does mean a great deal, because however good social services are, there will always be people in need and when some people were young we used to think that if you managed to give everyone a good education, good health and a reasonable standard of living, all the problems of the world would be solved. They were not, of course because you are really right down to the behavioural problems and it really comes back to being a responsible citizen and by recognising your duties one to another. That does not mean to say that you are going to be perfect; of course you are [end p26] not. You understand that other people are imperfect and you do not condemn, you just go and lend a hand.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
We are actually halfway there with a lot of the things you have mentioned.
Prime Minister
We are halfway there but we are not yet fully there.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
What are you most proud of having done during your term as Prime Minister?
Prime Minister
I think we have changed the attitudes a great deal. I think we were going in the direction of far too many people saying: “I have a problem; it is for the State to solve.” You will never have a responsible society or an exciting or enterprising vital society unless you have a society of people prepared to take their initiative, prepared to do things for themselves, prepared to lend a hand to others. It is a philosophical term.
[end p27]Alison Macdonald, Woman
But specific issues; if you could identify three of which you are most proud?
Prime Minister
The three of which I am most proud. It is our job to give a sound financial background—we have done it, and you have to go on doing that. The thing which worries me most of all is that we still have need of the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children. With a higher standard of living, we still have the terrible things happening to children and I think that to me is just the very very worst thing of all and some of the cases of children, and that is really why I say you have got always to think that it is not only up to the police, it is up to me as a neighbour. But we really are getting more independence back into our way of life and letting people, I hope, keep more of their own earnings, because you know people work for their families and if they keep more of their own earnings they will do much more for their families and give them much larger horizons, much larger experiences.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
Have you ever been conscious of having to unravel the damage done by the post-war Labour Government, philosophical damage? [end p28]
Prime Minister
Yes I have, very much so. I mean, sometimes you would go around, perhaps for a good cause, and they would say: “I thought the State did that now” and once you get to that “they”, the ubiquitous “they,” and you say but they are not “they”, they are “we”, and this is one reason why I am always trying to get the rate of tax down to enable people to have enough money in their own pockets, be generous to their own children, be generous to their own families and do what they want.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
Taxation and inflation have got to be two of the main goals that the Government has scored.
Prime Minister
Yes, they have, but also it is everyone—I call it popular capitalism—it is everyone. I think that you make one nation not by judging people by what their occupation is. You make one nation by saying: “Whatever your background, we do not want to take too much away from you in taxes. If you can build your own security with your own house, do things for your own children, and join in doing things for the community.” Our great voluntary services would not exist unless people had enough in their own pocket to put their hand in it and to lend a hand to someone else. [end p29]
Alison Macdonald, Woman
So a good deal has obviously been achieved—and I would agree with you there—over the years in which you have been in power. What is your mood as you run up to the general election?
Prime Minister
There is one thing that we still have not got. We still have not yet got back our full sense of enterprise. We were first into the Industrial Revolution, not because governments planned it, but because people took advantage of the opportunities. A lot of our people went to the United States, not to be kept by subsidies but to be free to pioneer. We are getting it back, we are getting more self-employed, but we are only going to get enough jobs for our young people if people can say: “I can do that. I can provide that service. I can make a particular product which will sell.” It is the personal enterprise. It is coming. I obviously want it to come faster.
I want a nation of independent people, where the Government serves their interest and does not control them.
Alison Macdonald, Woman
I understand.
Text ends.