3.39 pm
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Leon Brittan)
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
This House has had only too much cause in recent times to express its dismay and disgust about what has been happening to the game of football in this country. Innocent people far too often have been put in fear by rampaging young thugs who have deliberately come for a fight, and not to see the game at all. English supporters abroad have acquired the reputation of thugs and hooligans—so much so that as a result of what occured in Brussels English clubs have been banned from competing overseas. Trouble inside grounds deters peaceful, genuine supporters, especially families, from going to matches. The series of appalling and shameful events in the second half of last season—at Luton, at Birmingham and of course in Brussels, and elsewhere—has shaken the whole nation.
My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made it clear in the House on 3 June that the Government intend to take urgent action on a number of fronts to restore the good name of British football and to make football grounds safe places for decent people. This Bill is one such measure. It cannot solve the whole problem, but it can make an important contribution to doing so. It is concerned with the control of drink and drunkenness. There is widespread agreement that alcohol is a major contributory factor in violent and disorderly behaviour in football grounds, and it is this aspect of the problem that the Bill deals with. I have discussed its main provisions with the Opposition and the alliance parties, and readily recognise that they, and indeed the whole House, are as determined as the Government to do everything possible to ensure speedy and effective action. I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) and the hon. Members for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) and for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan) for their helpful comments and for the valuable contributions they have made to working out these proposals. I much appreciate their support and the fact that as a result we are able to approach this problem on a non-partisan basis.
The time scale in which the House is invited to approve the Bill is, I recognise, shorter than the House would normally expect. I regret that that should be necessary. The Government's intention is that the Bill's provisions should be in force before the start of the next football season. Time is therefore short, but I trust that the House will agree that action is needed now. We must take urgent action to do what is in our power to prevent the repetition of the disgraceful and tragic events of last season.
The Bill is broadly based on part V of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 1980. It varies from it in some respects, the most important of which I shall deal with shortly. The Scottish provisions have proved their value. The Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland has [column 334]said that it regards the 1980 Act as a major step towards improving football spectator behaviour. The Scottish Football Association and the Scottish League have said that, since the introduction of the Act, the atmosphere inside grounds has improved beyond measure.
Let us be under no illusions: the Bill will not solve all the problems of hooliganism. That requires other action as well, and not only by the Government. But I am convinced, in the light of the Scottish experience, that it will make an important contribution to securing a real improvement in the standard of crowd behaviour.
Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow)
Without wishing to hold up the Scots as paragons, does the Home Secretary recollect that there is a special problem in Scotland? The clubs that have made major alterations, namely, Rangers, Celtic and Aberdeen, in the light of the Ibrox disaster have a great deal of money compared with the other, smaller clubs. Where will the money for all this come from? The Scottish clubs that made the necessary improvements were the big and the rich clubs.
Mr. Brittan
The hon. Gentleman's question relates very much more to the safety requirements than to the problems covered by the Bill. Nevertheless, I accept that an element of financial restraint and limitation is involved.
The Bill applies to sports grounds and sporting events designated by the Secretary of State. My immediate intention is to designate only soccer grounds and matches. I intend to designate the grounds of all football league clubs, Wembley and any other stadium which might be used for international fixtures. I intend also to designate non-league grounds when they are used for matches with football league clubs—for example, in the FA Cup. At present hooliganism associated with other sports is not on a scale which makes the tough measures in this Bill necessary. Everything possible must be done to ensure that that remains the case. Nevertheless, it is right now to take powers which can be extended to other sports if the need arises. This is what has been done in the Scottish legislation.
Mr. Tom Pendry (Stalybridge and Hyde)
Is the Home Secretary aware that the big difference between the Scottish legislation and what he is proposing now is that every club in Scotland, with the exception of Clydebank, was dry and had no licensed facilities, whereas England and Wales have lived relatively happily with licensed clubs for many years?
Mr. Brittan
I had intended to deal with that matter, so perhaps I should proceed.
Mr. Joseph Ashton (Bassetlaw)
Is there not a major loophole in that, when the Home Secretary designates a ground, it must have a capacity of more than 10,000? If a club reduces its capacity to less than 10,000 by closing two sides of the ground, for example, would it not escape designation?
Mr. Brittan
I am glad to be able to clarify the matter. That is the case under the Safety of Sports Grounds Act 1975, but not with this legislation. There is a separate process of designation governed by separate definitions.
Some of the worst problems associated with drinking and drunkenness occur on “football specials” —coaches and trains taking supporters to and from matches—and at the entrances to grounds. Indeed, the Association of Chief Police Officers considers that this is where the main [column 335]problem lies. Supporters drink on the way to grounds and arrive there already under the influence of alcohol. The Bill contains tough measures to deal with this—it prohibits the possession of alcohol and drunkenness on special trains and coaches. Moreover, transport operators, hirers and their employees will commit offences if they permit the carriage of alcohol on such trains and coaches. Further offences are created in respect of the possession of alcohol, or drunkenness, when entering or trying to enter a ground. I regard these new controls on transport and on entry to grounds as perhaps the most important part of the Bill, since they should reduce the likelihood of supporters arriving at the ground already under the influence of alcohol.
I said earlier that there are some differences between our proposals and the Scottish Act. The significant ones relate to the sale and possession of alcohol in grounds. The Scottish Act bans the possession—and therefore the sale—of alcohol in any public area of a designated ground, but it permits possession, although not sale, in places within the ground which are not open to the public and not within sight of the pitch. The effect of this Bill is that, at the start of the new season, the sale of alcohol will similarly be prohibited in football grounds in England and Wales. It will also be an offence to possess alcohol at any place from which the match can be viewed, as in Scotland. In addition, it is proposed that subsequently, under tightly controlled conditions, clubs with a good record of safety and orderly conduct may be permitted, on application twice a season to a magistrates court, to sell alcohol, but only at approved places out of sight of the pitch. I should make it clear that this requirement will apply to all sales, whether to directors, supporters' clubs, social clubs or members of the public. In each case, applications to the court will be needed, and in each case there will be stringent provisions to stop the sale whenever that is necessary.
There are two main reasons for the variations from the Scottish provision. The first is largely historical. Scottish football clubs were “dry” before the 1980 Act because they were not licensed to sell alcohol. The main impact of the Scottish Act was therefore on people arriving drunk at gounds and on people taking in drink which they had bought outside. English clubs have a somewhat different tradition. Indeed, for some, sale of drink has been a source of considerable revenue, often use for ground improvements. So we are starting from a different point from our Scottish colleagues in 1980.
But that would not of course be anything like sufficient justification for shrinking from a total ban if that were necessary to deal with the problem effectively. These clubs would just have to forgo the revenue. But the fact is that the Association of Chief Police Officers, with its members' extensive experience of policing the grounds of major league clubs, has told us clearly that it does not favour a total ban. In its view, strictly controlled drinking inside grounds is easier to police than increased and more dispersed drinking in pubs and in the streets away from the ground.
Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)
Would it be a fair assumption to suggest that the Home Secretary is putting it to the House that some people will be boozing inside football grounds? If one has enough money to have a little [column 336]box with a little fridge, one can drink as much as one likes. Is it not also worthy of consideration that on a Wednesday afternoon we are talking about stopping people drinking on the terraces at football matches when at the same time on the terrace here at the House of Commons, where I was a few minutes ago, about 30 Members were boozing who will probably booze all day until the Vote at 10 o'clock tonight?
Mr. Brittan
The hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) has completely misunderstood the impact of the legislation. Whereas drinking on the House of Commons terrace may enable the hon. Gentleman to make a cheap point, he knows perfectly well that we are dealing with a particular problem that has brought shame on the country and requires urgent action. As for his last point, had the hon. Gentleman listened to my explanation, he would know that application can be made to the magistrates court for an exemption enabling bars to be opened to members of the public so long as they are not within sight of the pitch. I shall now continue with my explanation of the matter.
In view of the considerations to which I have referred, the Bill makes it possible for magistrates to issue an order permitting the sale of alcohol in certain areas of the ground if they are satisfied that this would not be detrimental to the orderly conduct and safety of spectators. That is a paramount requirement. The courts are asked to have regard, in particular, to the arrangements for the admission of spectators and for regulating their conduct, but it will not be possible for an order to apply to an area from which the pitch can be viewed directly. This is because the Bill contains an overriding offence banning the possession of alcohol in such areas. In any case, the police will, of course, be able to put to the court objections to the issue of an order. The net effect of these changes is that, if, and only if, the magistrates authorise it, alcohol will be able to be sold to members of the public but only in areas out of sight of the pitch—for example, in the behind-stands bars which exist in many grounds. In no circumstances will drink be permissible on the terraces or stands.
Moreover, the police will be able to apply for a revocation or variation of an exemption order and if there is no time to apply to the court, a police inspector will himself be able to revoke the order temporarily. In addition to all that, if disorder none the less arises, any bar can be closed by the police forthwith at the match itself. The limited element of flexibility that I have described will make it possible to recognise the good record of some clubs and to provide an incentive for others to do better. Nevertheless, as compared with the current position in England and Wales, the proposals in the Bill embody a system of rigorous controls which will have an impact on all clubs and, in some cases, may lead to a considerable loss of revenue. In particular, the Bill will ban the possession and sale of alcohol in private boxes and restaurants from which the pitch can be viewed.
Mr. David Alton (Liverpool, Mossley Hill)
The Home Secretary has already told the House that many people arrive at football grounds in an alcoholic stupor. Should he not therefore ensure that more authorities can implement the existing power to ban alcohol in areas around the grounds? Will he also tell the House that, when the opportunity for international matches returns, duty-free liquor will be banned from sale on ferries to and from matches?
[column 337]Mr. Brittan
That matter will have to be considered at the appropriate time. On the first point, the hon. Member is right in the sense that it is open to the police to apply to the courts for a suspension of licensing provisions relating to public houses in the vicinity of grounds, if they anticipate disorder. It is also open to them to make a similar application in relation to off licences. I am glad the hon. Gentleman has given me the opportunity to draw that to the attention of the House.
I understand the concern of clubs, some with a good record of crowd behaviour, about the prospect of a considerable loss of revenue, but the need to do everything we can to minimise the risk of disorder must prevail. The proposals in the Bill for the control of alcohol inside grounds are tough, but I believe that they are fair, and that they strike the right balance between the need to prevent disorder and our desire not to penalise good clubs and respectable spectators.
Mr. Denis Howell (Birmingham, Small Heath)
The Home Secretary has just said, properly, that he understands some of the financial implications for clubs. If we are considering the future of football and if this is a Bill for all time, it is important to understand the financial effects of the proposals on football clubs. Does the Home Secretary dispute the figure given to me by the football league that this amounts in essence to a fine of £4 million? We will deal with that in Committee later, but how does the Home Secretary expect clubs to make up the £4 million that they need to run the clubs and to carry out community sports policy on football grounds?
Mr. Brittan
I do not accept the figure for one moment.
Mr. Denis Howell
What is the Home Secretary's figure?
Mr. Brittan
If the right hon. Gentleman asks a question, I assume that he wants an answer and if he is prepared to listen, he will have it. I do not accept the figure he gave, for two reasons. First, that figure is based on an estimate of the number of people who will give up private boxes. That assumption is dependent upon the impossibility of converting those boxes into such a form as to comply with the law. It is also dependent upon an assumption that the only interest of the people who take those boxes is to drink rather than to watch football.
Secondly, I do not accept the estimate that the right hon. Gentleman has given because that estimate fails to take account of the other factor—that, if we make football something that can be watched safely, revenue will increase because far more people will be prepared to go to football matches. In particular, families who were driven away by the spectacle of violence will return to football matches. I have no doubt that it is because the right hon. Gentleman accepts the necessity to take these measures that he has been so helpful in assisting the Government to come forward with proposals, the support of which by the Opposition I very much welcome.
Mr. Max Madden (Bradford, West)
The Home Secretary may know that I was in contact with his Department last week to ask what the impact of the Bill would be on Bradford City football club which in the coming season will be playing its matches on a rugby ground. If he cannot give me the information now, could he arrange for his hon. Friend to give it when he [column 338]contributes to the debate? Secondly, before the Home Secretary sits down, can he say when a progress report will be given to the House by the working party on safety? Can he give an assurance that we will get a statement before the House goes into recess?
Mr. Brittan
The last point that the hon. Gentleman raised does not relate to the Bill, but it is the intention of Mr. Justice Popplewell to give an interim report at an early date, as I have said he was most welcome to do. On the particular Bradford point, I will seek to get a response to the hon. Gentleman shortly.
Mr. John Carlisle (Luton, North)
Before he leaves that point of drinking out of sight in the sponsor's box, I hope my right hon. and learned Friend will accept this is going to make a very serious difference to many clubs, particularly those which are proposing to build new boxes. I take his point that, under the new proposals, those boxes must be built in such a way that drinking will not be seen. As my hon. Friend the Member for South Ribble (Mr. Atkins) has said, in some of the places where football is being watched, alcohol is necessary because the football on the pitch is so bad. He must understand and not underestimate the fact that this brings a very large revenue into the clubs and that there will be a considerable cost to clubs, particularly to the club of the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Small Heath (Mr. Howell), in installing one-way glass.
Mr. Brittan
I accept there is a potential loss of revenue for those clubs that wish to set up the kind of boxes from which the pitch can be viewed. As my hon. Friend has fairly pointed out, the clubs concerned can adapt their arrangements and make them comply with the Bill so that the drinking does not take place within sight of the pitch. As the House will be aware fom the competing interventions, we are talking about a balance. It would be possible simply to say, “No drink at all, in any circumstances.” That would be too damaging to those football clubs which derive an income from drink and where it can be controlled safely. On the other hand, to say that we will allow drinking to take place within sight of the pitch would go too far in the opposite direction. This balance is the right one. I shall now go through the main provisions of the Bill.
Clause 1 concerns travel to and from matches on coaches, minibuses and football special trains. It creates three new offences: first, it is an offence to possess alcohol on the vehicle or train; secondly, it is an offence for the hirer or operator or his servant or agent knowingly to cause or permit alcohol to be carried; and thirdly, it is an offence for a passenger to be drunk. The clause will catch travel in England and Wales, not only to English and Welsh grounds, but also—this is important—to designated matches abroad and to matches in Scotland which have been designated under the 1980 Scottish Act.
Mr. Tony Banks (Newham, North-West)
Is the Home Secretary aware that there is a growing practice among the unofficial supporters' clubs, like the Inter-City Firm, for example—no doubt he knows quite a lot about such organisations—to privately hire mini-vans and coaches and drive themselves to football grounds? I assume they will take their alcohol with them. Is that covered in his Bill?
[column 339]Mr. Brittan
Yes, if it requires to be licensed, but it is not possible to cover what is the equivalent of a private car.
Mr. Harry Ewing (Falkirk, East)
Clause 1 relates to those operating trains. The Home Secretary made the important point that it will catch supporters and the staff on the trains travelling to matches in Scotland. Clause 10 is the relevant clause relating to Scotland and does not cover the staff. I am not in favour of the staff on trains being liable under this legislation. What will happen when the train is not travelling from England to Scotland, but from Scotland to England? When the train is in Scotland it is covered by the Scottish legislation, which does not deal with the staff on the train. When the train is in England it is covered by the English legislation, which does deal with the staff. Is this not confusing?
Mr. Brittan
I am aware of the point and I should like to look into it, because it may be a matter which requires clarification. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman.
Clause 2 concerns behaviour in the ground or on entry to it. It is an offence to be drunk while entering or trying to enter the ground, or any part of it. We have gone somewhat further than our Scottish colleagues in this respect—the hon. Gentleman may be interested in that—in that under the 1980 Act the offence of drunkenness can be committed only in public areas of the ground and areas from which the game can be viewed. We propose no such limitation. It is also an offence to possess alcohol or a controlled container on entry to the ground or in any part of the ground from which the game can be directly viewed. The throwing of missiles, especially bottles and cans, is all too common and can cause serious injury to innocent people. This provision in effect bans all bottles and cans from the stands and terraces.
Mr. Ashton
Can the Home Secretary tell us why this applies just to football? Is he aware that, at a championship boxing match two years ago, people were urinating in empty lager cans and throwing them at the ring and causing a lot of damage? There was mayhem on that night. Why is he not covering boxing in the same way as football?
Mr. Brittan
The fact that the hon. Gentleman refers to a single example two years ago illustrates the point well. If, sadly, the sort of scenes one has seen so frequently in football matches became prevalent in any other sport, one would have to consider the extension of the legislation to cover that. Although the hon. Gentleman can give an important example, violence of the kind we have seen on the football grounds is not habitual elsewhere.
Mr. Peter Snape (West Bromwich, East)
On the question of consuming alcohol in an area from which the pitch can be seen, is the Home Secretary aware that, at West Bromwich Albion's ground there are 57 executive boxes? Would it be possible under this legislation for someone to sit in one of those boxes in full view of the pitch and consume Coca-Cola or even Perrier water? Would that not be likely to inflame people in other parts of the ground who will not know from a distance whether or not someone is consuming alcohol?
Mr. Brittan
That is not a real problem. They will certainly be able to drink Perrier water if that is what they wish.
[column 340]The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher)
Not Perrier.
Mr. Brittan
As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister points out, they might be wiser to choose a similar sparkling English product.
Mr. Skinner
What about claret?
Mr. Brittan
Claret will be caught out. The hon. Gentleman's concern is fully met, and I am able to assure him that the ban on claret drinking in sight of the pitch is one that has the full acquiescence of all parties in the House. Perhaps I could proceed.
Clause 3 to 5 and the Schedule concern the sale of alcohol in licensed or registered club premises inside the ground when a match is being played. That includes a period of two hours before the start of the match and one hour after the final whistle. During that time, no alcohol may be sold unless the magistrates court has granted an exemption order. I have explained how that works. As I have said, the court must be satisfied in granting an order about the likely consequences for public safety and orderly behaviour. The order may be revoked or varied by the court, either generally or for a particular match. There is power for a police inspector to suspend an order at short notice for a particular match. This would provide for the situation in which, for example, the police received information on a Saturday morning that troublesome supporters of the away team were on the their way to the afternoon's match.
Clause 4 provides that the normal duration of an exemption order is five months. The relevance of that—I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Gorton for assisting us in coming to that period—is that this means that clubs will need to apply for an order and thereby satisfy the court about its arrangements for ensuring safety and good order at least twice every season. Clause 4 and the schedule lay down procedures for making applications for orders, which include in every case the notification of the chief officer of police and the local authority.
Before leaving this part of the Bill, I should say that while clubs will be able to apply for exemption orders as soon as the Bill comes into force, it will take some time for applications to be dealt with. Therefore, there will be a period after commencement during which no club whose ground has been designated will be able to sell alcohol at a match.
Mr. Peter Bruinvels (Leicester, East)
Leicester City football club sent me a telex message today about this. It feels that it will no longer be able to serve alcohol in its executive boxes. They are screened from the public, but they overlook the pitch. Does my right hon. and learned Friend think that the club will be able to appeal, or does it have nothing to worry about? If it must appeal, how long will it have to wait?
Mr. Brittan
If the pitch can be seen from the boxes, I am afraid that the club will have to reconstruct its boxes for the possession of alcohol to be permissible. However, if the boxes are not covered by that absolute ban, it will be open to the club to apply to the magistrates court for an exemption order. But, as I have explained, for a short time at the beginning of the next football season all league club games and international fixtures will be dry.
It is not possible to say exactly how long it will take for an exemption order to be issued in any particular case, but [column 341]it cannot be less than 28 days, which is the minimum period laid down in the Bill, between the application to the court and the hearing of the case. Therefore, it is likely to be September before any sale of drink at designated grounds can be resumed. This will mean—it is a positive advantage and not just an administrative consequence of the procedures—that in considering applications courts will be able to take account of each club's track record in the opening weeks of the season.
Clause 5 provides a right of appeal to the Crown court against a decision by a magistrates court in connection with an order. Clause 6 empowers a constable in uniform to close bars in a ground if trouble breaks out or is threatened during the period of a match. Clause 7 gives the police the necessary powers to enforce the Bill's provisions. Clause 8 prescribes penalties, and clause 9 sets out the definitions. Clause 10 amends part V of the Scottish Act.
Mr. Robert Atkins (South Ribble)
What will be the position of Berwick Rangers, whose ground is situated in an English town but which plays in the Scottish league? To which legislation will it be subject?
Mr. Brittan
Its ground will be subject to the English legislation.
Clause 10 amends part V of the Scottish Act. It extends controls under the Act to trains, which are not caught at present under the 1980 Act, as well as public service vehicles. It enables the Secretary of State for Scotland to designate matches overseas, and it applies the Act to matches designated under the present Bill so that travel in Scotland en route to designated matches in England and Wales and abroad will be caught.
It is a matter of deep regret that we should have to be considering such measures today. I believe that the whole House and the whole country would infinitely prefer it if they were not necessary, but there is no doubt that they are necessary. Football is a great national game which gives pleasure to millions. We cannot tolerate the mindless violence and hooliganism that now disfigre it. I believe that the measures that we are discussing today are in the interests of law-abiding supporters, the clubs themselves and everybody who wants to be able to walk freely about his town on a Saturday without fear or hindrance.
Mr. John Carlisle
Can my right hon. and learned Friend emphasise one very important point? Nowhere in the Bill is the word “football” mentioned. Will he confirm that the Bill is intended for designated football clubs and football alone? Perhaps he will explain that should he or any successor of his decide that such measures are necessary for other sports such as cricket or rugby, he will have to come back to the House and seek approval for such sports to be designated—or will they be covered under this Bill's provisions?
Mr. Brittan
I said earlier that at the moment it was the Government's intention to apply it to football and not to other sports. However, the Bill provides for the procedure to apply to other sports.
Our objective must be to make football grounds safe places for peaceful citizens to go and take their families to enjoy a great sport. The Bill will not in itself and alone secure that objective, but I believe that in dealing with the problem of alcohol in relation to football it will take us one important step towards that aim.