Peter Murphy, IRN
Can I ask you, first of all Prime Minister, are you worried about party morale?
Prime Minister
I see nothing to be worried about. Did you come to the Women's Conference the other day? Absolutely superb and I loved the Chairwoman's summing-up, when she said at the end: “Well, Prime Minister, you have given us our half-time talk and we are all full backs here; we are all fully backing you!” That does not sound like anything other than very good morale to me!
Peter Murphy, IRN
But some of your backbenchers do seem to have the jitters at the moment. Is it just mid-term blues?
Prime Minister
No, they have not got the jitters. They have not got the jitters. You are trying to pin that on them, but they [end p1] have not got the jitters. We, most of us, have been through mid-term before.
Peter Murphy, IRN
But how do you explain then the sudden appearance of Conservative Centre Forward and Francis Pym 's new movement?
Prime Minister
The name “Centre Forward” in fact was coined in a book by Rhodes Boyson in 1978. It is not a new movement. Of course, when you have a party as big as ours, you have people with various views. It would be a very strange party if we did not have people constantly bringing up new ideas, constantly looking at things. There is nothing unusual about that, and it is not jitters—it is constructive.
Peter Murphy, IRN
Do you think, though, that Conservative Centre Forward and Francis Pym's group of about 30 backbenchers pose a serious threat to the party and party morale?
Prime Minister
No, of course they do not! They are putting forward particular views and what is wrong with that? [end p2]
Peter Murphy, IRN
The other day, in your speech, you also talked about fair-weather friends and faint hearts. Is that your description … .
Prime Minister
It was not any reference to those, not in any way. We are always used … in mid-term, you get a particularly rough passage, often in the opinion polls, and I am not surprised when we unfortunately have got mortgage rates up now because we had to put the interest rate up because of the exchange rate—because in spite of everything we are doing, although the number of jobs is rising and although we have one of the highest proportions of our population in Europe that is in work, we also have far too high a proportion out of work. One understands those worries, but people are not getting jitters. What we are trying to do is something constructive about them.
Peter Murphy, IRN
But there is a certain amount of unease among some Conservative backbenchers that I have spoken to. What can you offer them?
Prime Minister
Look! There is unease, as I say, about the mortgage rate. There is unease about unemployment. Of course there is! Nigel Lawson tried in the last Budget two lots of measures—three lots of measures—in fact, which will take a time to work through. One: putting down the [end p3] National Insurance Contribution on the low paid; that helps employees to take more people on. Secondly, greatly extending the Youth Training Scheme. That will affect far many more young people and will mean they are trained instead of being on the unemployment register; and also, for people who have been unemployed, putting far many more into jobs on what, as you know, is called the Community Programme.
Now those measures will work through. They will take a year to work through. Again, of course, we are constantly trying to think of others. Infrastructure. What is called infrastructure—roads: the expenditure on roads is up; the expenditure on hospitals: we have got 51 hospital schemes under construction. All of that which we are being advised to do is being done. It will take a time to show through.
Peter Murphy, IRN
When will it start showing through? When will unemployment start falling?
Prime Minister
I have just indicated that the Youth Training Scheme and the Community Programme will take just about a year to work through. One of the problems is that although we have been creating more jobs—as I say, one of the highest proportions of our population is in work in Europe. The working population is going up faster. This is one of our problems. Over a period of 10 years we have more school-leavers, because that [end p4] is the way the birth-rate went 10 years ago, than we have people retiring—and that is one of our problems and that is why it is not going fast enough, and that is why we have increased the numbers of people on youth training by a very considerable number and we put 100,000 more on to the Community Programme. It will take about a year to work through, then we will have to have a look and see if that is enough, and if not then we shall have to consider other things.
Peter Murphy, IRN
So are you predicting that unemployment will start to fall in a year's time?
Prime Minister
I am always hoping that the rate at which new jobs are being created will be greater than the rate at which people are becoming redundant and the rate at which more people are added to the population of working age. Obviously, that is what one hopes. I am not going to make any predictions. What I am saying is the number of things that we are doing: record capital investment last year; much better spending on infrastructure, that is roads, hospitals; more on things like water schemes; more on youth training; more on special jobs for those who have been out of work. This is all being done—of course it is! We hope that it will finish in reducing the numbers of unemployed. That is why we are doing it. [end p5]
Peter Murphy, IRN
You say it is all being done, but do you feel that perhaps your message is not getting across to the general public or even to committed Conservatives?
Prime Minister
Well, I am very grateful for the opportunity of saying what we are doing, but I can quite understand that they are worried, just as I am worried about the numbers of people who are unemployed, in spite of all this.
You see, of our population of working age, 66%; of them are in work. That is in the whole population of working age, including wives and students and so on. 66%; are in work and yet we have an unemployment rate of 13%;.
In the United States, 66%; of the population of working age are in work and yet they only have an unemployment rate of 7%;. It is all very mystifying and obviously we look at the figures. Those statistics are very difficult at the moment, but I look at the number of people who would like a job who cannot get one, and we are doing everything as a government to help them to get one by cutting down the overheads on employers and, of course, in the end, a lot of jobs have to come from the private sector.
Now, in manufacturing, as you know, we have got record output and again, it is a paradox. Record output for all time, but fewer people employed, and that is the effect of technology, and so we know that we shall only get the number of people who have been made redundant taken up by more small businesses starting. In the United States, they have more small businesses [end p6] starting—we are getting it.
Now, if we cannot get those starting enough, then we have to look at more places on things like the Community Programme and even more training, because then people are much much more likely to be able to get jobs, because in the middle of unemployment we have got a shortage of skills! It does not make sense, does it? Spending all of this money on training, all of this money on universities, all of this money on polytechnics, all of this money on higher education, all of this money on training, and we cannot always get people to take the training in the areas for which jobs are waiting.
Peter Murphy, IRN
Given that though, there are still backbenchers who feel that there is not a great deal of good news to look ahead to in the next couple of years.
Prime Minister
Let me give you some good news!
Peter Murphy, IRN
Can I ask about …
Prime Minister
You don't want it? It is all right! [end p7]
Peter Murphy, IRN
I will ask you about that but there is a review of welfare benefits which many backbenchers see as a potential storm ahead and they are very worried that things are going to get rough.
Prime Minister
Unless we had had a fundamental review of the Welfare State and the Beveridge Report started by Winston Churchill, which came out in 1943/44, then we should never have had a Welfare State, but I think it is quite wrong to think that the entire set-up set then—40 years ago—is absolutely appropriate to the set-up today. And, of course, you have a duty to look and see what your responsibilities are in the future, what is going to be the change in shift in population between the numbers of people of pensionable age, the numbers who are going to need more care in hospital because you are going to have more older people, more people over 85 compared with the numbers of working age. And if you do not look at this, then you are promising people things which you may not be able to deliver.
Of course you have got to look at it. It is our duty to look at it! Some people may run away from looking at it, but not the Conservative Party. Yes, we do have a duty to people. We do have a duty to their pensions. We do have a duty to looking after their health. By the end of this century, we are going to have three-quarters of a million people over 85 years of age. First time. We have got to look at the impact of that [end p8] on health.
At the beginning of the next century—and of course you have to look at pensions now—there will be fewer people in the population of working age looking after more people retired. Are you suggesting that we know these things are going to happen and we do not make plans for them?
Yes, we are a party of foresight. We do try to look at these things, and you have got to warn people and you have got to make provision in time. What you cannot do is bury your head in the sand like an ostrich and say: “I do not want to know!” You have got a duty to know. You have got a duty to review. You have got a duty to inform. There have been many public hearings on this point. There have been many many people who have given evidence—4,000 pieces of evidence have been given. There have been many many enquiries sent out officially as to what people think—over 40,000.
Now, there is no point in just burying your head in the sand like a pack of ostriches. That will not do. We have a duty to look at them, and we shall.
And on rates, believe you me, there are people desperately worried about the rates they are paying, and they are saying “Look! Only a comparatively few people pay rates. Why put a colossal burden on them and very little on others? It is inequitable!” The Conservative Party does not like inequity. You cannot always be popular, but you do have to try to be fair, and that is the approach we shall take, and we are very calm [end p9] about it because we know it has to be done and then we have to get it across.
Now do you want some good news? Record output—all-time. Record investment—all-time. Record standard of living—all-time. Rising profits. Now that is good news. Rising exports, even of non-oil things. Now this is where the jobs are going to come from—in rising output, rising exports.
Peter Murphy, IRN
Can I turn now to perhaps another cause of the jitters on the back benches … .
Prime Minister
There are no jitters. Let us get this straight! There are no jitters and it is no earthly good using that word, trying to pin on us, trying to influence opinion to try to secure a position which is not so. There are no jitters!
Peter Murphy, IRN
But you have a large number of backbenchers who came into Parliament at the last Election, many of whom now see the rise of the Alliance as a major threat to their future as MPs.
Prime Minister
I seem to remember you and your colleagues asking me during the Election what would we do if there was a hung Parliament. There is nothing unusual about this. Do you [end p10] remember a bye-election called Torrington? Do you remember a bye-election called Orpington? This has been going on longer than I have been in Parliament.
Peter Murphy, IRN
You do not think that the Alliance is a threat?
Prime Minister
Why do you make it as if it is something new? It used to be represented by the Liberal Party. Then the SPD did not even join the Liberal Party—they set up another party. Yes, we have seen this before.
Peter Murphy, IRN
But it now looks as if, come the next Election, you could have a three-way split.
Prime Minister
That is what you were saying to me last time, in the mid-term last time. That is what you were saying to me at the last Election.
Peter Murphy, IRN
But the opinion polls seem to indicate that there is rather more substance to it this time. [end p11]
Prime Minister
The opinion polls have been very similar to this before.
Peter Murphy, IRN
So you are not concerned about the rise of the Alliance?
Prime Minister
I am concerned about steadily going on with our positive policies, which I believe are the ones which will get inflation down again—and I am very glad that people now know that inflation is important, because it may have gone up, but the Labour Party never succeeded in getting it as low as this. I am concerned with going on trying to create more jobs. I am concerned in going on reviewing things which it is the duty of a Government to review. I am concerned in going on to produce a scheme which is equitable in rates; and I believe that people in the end want to know where they are with a Government. They do know where they are with this one. They do not vote for a government which is so weak that it has not got policies or which changes with every wind.
No, in the end, I think that they will appreciate us and prefer us, because we believe in certain things.
Look! Do you think any other government would have had the courage to do what we have done with trade union law? And look at the effect which it is having. It is giving back to trade union members some dignity, control and say over their union affairs. They would never have got that from the Labour Party! [end p12]
Peter Murphy, IRN
I know you would regard it as unthinkable, but if there was no clear majority after the next Election, could you work with the Alliance?
Prime Minister
You have been asking me that for years and I have said we go into an Election to win a majority, just exactly as we have gone in for the last two elections—to win a majority on the basis of our positive policies. And the interesting thing is I am just about the only one who is talking about positive constructive policies.
Peter Murphy, IRN
Talking of positive constructive policies, do you think there is a danger perhaps that you are trying to do too much too soon?
Prime Minister
No. I think we are taking it steadily, very steadily. You see, if we were not doing this, you would accuse me of running out of steam, so you have got it both ways haven't you? If I am not doing it, you are accusing me of running out of steam; if we are doing it, we are doing too much. We are doing what we think needs to be done. We are doing it in the way where we review and then we place it before people to discuss it. Now that is the right way! [end p13]
Peter Murphy, IRN
On the right of the Party though, there are some people who might actually criticise you for not doing enough and saying that you actually have not succeeded in one of your main aims of cutting public expenditure.
Prime Minister
Well now, am I accused of not doing enough or not doing too much? Of course, you accuse me of anything.
Peter Murphy, IRN
Well, I will play Devil's Advocate from either side.
Prime Minister
It is very difficult to cut public expenditure. Yes, we do try to constrain it and we have constrained it. It is not easy, because the demands for it are always enormous and sometimes you have accused me of cutting. Often you have accused me of cutting when actually we have been increasing.
You have got, in fact, to keep it under control and you have got to say to people, who make endless demands on what they call “Government money” , say: “Look! There is no Government money. All these demands come on the tax-payer!” It is my job as a government, together with all my colleagues in government and my backbenchers, to see that the demands on the tax-payers are not so great that the tax-payers have not enough money to live on and use for purposes which they want to spend their money on. [end p14]
I was looking at the taxation on, I think a nurse, on about £133/135 a week. I think she pays something like £20–23 in income tax.
Now, obviously people are saying: “Please, we pay too much in income tax!” Then if, in the next breath, everyone is saying you have got to pay everyone more and spend more on roads you cannot have that without paying more tax, so you have got to balance things and I believe myself—and we have in fact increased the amount of your salary which is tax-free in the last Budget—that people want to be left with enough of their own earnings—and they are entitled to be—to spend on what they want for their families. And this is the battle the whole time to free up more so that people can have it to spend in their own pockets. I am not the sort of Prime Minister that says: “I know better how to spend it than you!” But I have got to have a balance between having good public services, because the private sector cannot work without good public services, and the public services have not got enough money to work without a good private sector. So we have got to try to get that essential partnership right.
And I think we make a reasonably good first of it.
Peter Murphy, IRN
Can I turn now, very briefly, to your own style of leadership. Do you get upset when people say you are too strident? [end p15]
Prime Minister
I do not think that is true. I am firm. I have to be firm. There would not be much point in having a Prime Minister who was not firm. There would not be much point in sending a Prime Minister overseas to represent Britain unless they had a great deal of respect for the Prime Minister of Britain—respect for the fact that she knew her case, respect for the fact that she could win the argument by being firm, by being persistent.
You have used that word “strident” . Yes, there are times when I have to shout in the House of Commons to be heard above the noise, and do you know why there is noise? Because they do not like people to hear my arguments, because they are good and because they are sound. Yes, there are times when I do have to get them across, but I have to get them across.
Peter Murphy, IRN
Have you moderated your style at all in any way?
Prime Minister
I do not think I have moderated it. Sometimes I say: “Well I really am just not going to shout any more and if you want to hear it then in fact you must be quiet and if you do not want to hear it, well there are people who just can put their ear to the microphones and hear it through the microphones!” [end p16]
Peter Murphy, IRN
Finally, are there times when you get home after a day in the Commons when you have had everyone moaning at you when you think: “That is it! I would just like to chuck it in and retire!” ?
Prime Minister
No, because I know that people from the Opposition use some of the abuse they do, which personally I do not think politics should be conducted in that way, to try to get you down, and I know they must not succeed. Yes, it wounds sometimes, it wounds deeply. I do not like it as a way of conducting public affairs either, and that is why you will find me steadily, in speech after speech, saying: “What are the facts?” Put it on a constructive. [indistinct] … because that is the way I think politics should be conducted. But no, I never say: “I think I will chuck it in. Never!”
Peter Murphy, IRN
Your husband recently celebrated his 70th birthday. You will be approaching retirement age this year. Don't you feel that it is time to start taking it easy?
Prime Minister
No. Denis and I have been workers all our lives. We have had to be. We are real workers, real hard workers, and we will go on being real hard workers I think to our dying day. [end p17] He has been absolutely marvellous. I think we make a good team and I hope that other people will think so.
Peter Murphy, IRN
And you are still determined to make it a hat trick of victories at General Elections?
Prime Minister
I would like to! I would like to! But when it comes up I will go to an election … . I will say: “Yes, I have been a worker all my life … whether I started in a laboratory as an industrial chemist, through everything I have done, I have been positive all my life. I have made up my mind that I believe in certain things very strongly. I believe in people being able to climb the ladder by their own effort and decide how far they shall go up and nothing should stop them. I am not interested in what background they come from. There is a reason for everything I do. There are some things that I am deeply disappointed in—that we have not been able to create enough jobs because more jobs come from the private sector than the public sector. I hope we shall succeed in that. Genuine jobs, so that people can look forward to their own fundamental dignity and security from their own work.”
But I will be able to say: “Yes, we have changed attitudes in Britain; we have given members of trade unions far more dignity and far more say than they would ever have got from anyone else. We have redressed the balance in favour of the [end p18] citizen, so that the citizen has more rights and the State has less. We have gone in for a lot of privatization which is very popular. We have got everyone having the chance of being a property owner—everyone a man of property. We are trying to bring to the many what used to be the privileges of the few!”
Oh yes, we are going to have a very good case to put at the next Election, but it is a case which stems from the fact that I believe fundamentally in the character and the people of this country. I believe they are capable of more than we are showing and I believe that the way to do that is to release their talents and abilities and not to stifle them.