John Simpson, BBC
Prime Minister, you have obviously got what you set out to get by coming here. You have got a complete ban in the final communique on any mention of sanctions. What did you have to give to get that?
Prime Minister
Our views, as you know, are well known on that and we just steadily and persistently continued to argue them and eventually they found favour. The Commonwealth was very anxious to have an agreed statement. They wanted one or two signals, they are called psychological signals, to the South African Government, and those we gave.
I was very keen to get a statement that when dialogue started violence would have to be suspended and I was very keen to do something constructive to help South Africa. There is no point when you have got a situation like this in hitting out. You want to do something constructive. So the only things we had to give were to try to secure a ban on the import of Krugerrands—actually, very few are now coming in—and also, again they wanted a signal that we would not spend taxpayers' money on trade missions or trade fairs to South Africa, and it was worth paying that price obviously to keep [end p1] the Commonwealth together and to go forward in what I considered to was the best possible way.
John Simpson, BBC
But is that not the thin end of the wedge really so far as our relations with South Africa are concerned?
Prime Minister
This end of the wedge in what way?
John Simpson, BBC
Could it not be the start of a wider process?
(Comment from the producer)
John Simpson, BBC
But is that not the thin end of the wedge as far as Britain's trade with South Africa is concerned?
Prime Minister
No, I most earnestly hope not. I mean, those are two such tiny things that I do not think they will affect our trade with South Africa and anyway, there is no earthly point in trying to create unemployment at home to create unemployment there, which is why I was against sanctions and still remain against sanctions, added to which they will not work. [end p2]
John Simpson, BBC
Have you not though committed yourself—committed Britain—to a process which is going to continue? After all, these things are going to be monitored, whether South Africa actually does improve itself, reform itself. Now, what happens if it does not reform itself? Are we then going to have the same arguments again and again?
Prime Minister
Well, we may have the same arguments. What I really insisted was that at the end of six months we do review the situation. We do not tie our hands as to what we would do. When you have got a moving situation—and this one has moved quite a lot in the last six months—you really cannot tie your hands to what you will do. The unexpected always happens.
My concern is that we proceed by negotiation and not by violence. My concern was to get agreement to that fundamental proposition. There has been far too much violence in South Africa. People say: “Right! If they will not negotiate, we have to proceed by violence!” So if the South African Government and everyone says: “Right! Let us get negotiations going!” then the violence should cease.
John Simpson, BBC
But in six months' time, surely there will be pressure on you to agree to the next thing? I mean, this time you agreed to Krugerrands. What about perhaps British Airways flights to South Africa? [end p3]
Prime Minister
No. You will notice that that section says “Some governments would consider the following things.” We are not one of those “some”, just not.
But look! Let us just be a little bit hopeful. Things are on the move in South Africa. The perception of the rest of the world is that things have to change; that it is the time for that change; so let us be hopeful that with the things we are doing, with the constructive approach we are doing, that that discussion will get going. It will take quite a time when it gets going, because it is for them to decide what shall happen, not for us. But let us be hopeful that it will get going and lead to a stable regime in which all races can take part, and then prosperity and growth can return to South Africa, although it is now, as you know, the strongest economy in Africa—but it can continue its growth and confidence of the rest of the world.
John Simpson, BBC
Is that not really a little bit optimistic though, given the violence of the past week, given the fact that when the Commonwealth appealed for mercy for this man on Friday he was still executed? They took no notice of the Commonwealth then. Why should they take any notice of the Commonwealth now?
Prime Minister
I believe they will take notice of the Commonwealth, but that was a very particular thing which I do not think should get entangled with this particular thing. The Commonwealth made its views known on that. [end p4]
Look! We want negotiation. There may be some who do not want negotiation. If that is so, then people will see who is at fault. But I believe the South African Government wants to proceed by negotiation. We want them to proceed by negotiation, and the countries who have been present at the Commonwealth—particularly the black African countries—have made it abundantly clear that the ANC has always been willing to negotiate and would be willing to negotiate. So they in fact have really put their good faith on the line.
John Simpson, BBC
There has always been a suspicion among a lot of black African countries that Britain really does secretly sympathise with white South Africa and that the whole effort here was part of the business of trying to protect white South Africa.
Prime Minister
You cannot judge people by the colour of their skin. There are in South Africa many many thousands—almost millions—of well qualified black South Africans. There are as many black South Africans who matriculate as white South Africans. There is something like, I am told, 100,000 black South Africans with professional qualifications—more than in the whole of the rest of Africa—and a very considerable middle income group of people in South Africa, some in trade, some professionally qualified. Having all that, you can understand the resentment when they are excluded from all the processes of government. That is wrong. We are trying to [end p5] stop it. So I believe the South African Government has come to recognise that it has to stop.
Look! We have taken Indians from African governments who excluded Indians, so they are not necessarily in a position to accuse us of those things. We want apartheid to end. We want people to be able to take part in government regardless of their colour or creed—it should be on ability. Yes, you have to have provision for minorities, because there are many many groupings that often do in Africa, but you cannot carry on with this totally unstable regime based on wrong principles. You cannot.