Peter Snow
How was your speech received, do you think?
Prime Minister
Well, I hope it was received in the spirit it was given.
Peter Snow
Did you have any reaction, or would you like to make a reaction now, to the execution this morning of that South African?
Prime Minister
The Commonwealth has issued a statement about it. I do not think I should go beyond that.
Peter Snow
Were you worried about the timing? Was it an embarrassment to have it timed this morning like that? [end p1]
Prime Minister
It was a particular thing about which the Commonwealth wished to issue a statement. I think that we have to deal with the matter of South Africa really rather as an issue which should not be clouded by a particular case and we are dealing with apartheid in South Africa and the way to bring it to an end; and the only difference between us is how best to bring it to an end. That is what the debate is about.
Peter Snow
In a word, Prime Minister, what are you saying to the Commonwealth about sanctions?
Prime Minister
What I am saying to the Commonwealth is this: when I went to Lusaka in 1979, sanctions had been on Rhodesia for 12 years. They had not worked—they never do. There are nations who always get the goods through. One nations says: “I will not supply!” They sell it to a second nation and then on to the other. They never work. They will not.
You go to South Africa and say: “Look! We want to be constructive and we want to do all we can to help end apartheid” and at the same time you say: “We are going to clap economic sanctions on you!” you will not get anywhere with them. Sanctions do not work. They never have worked. You start on that road, you add to the situation in South Africa chaos, unemployment, poverty, starvation. You will add enormously to the difficulties in other countries, including ours, once you start on that road. I do not know where it will finish and I am not willing to start on that road. [end p2]
What is having an influence on South Africa is the judgment of the people who invest there. Their judgment is quite simply this: “the regime is not stable; it will have to change; therefore, we are not prepared to risk the money, the investments, our pension funds, our insurance funds; we are not prepared to risk the money there. The regime will have to change.” That is far more powerful. It has been induced by the refusal of the regime to change enough, and when the regime has changed, and when the black people in South Africa are involved in government, the people who have the money to invest—including the pension funds and insurance funds—will not necessarily say: “Well all right, it is an all-colour regime now!” They will say: “What sort of regime is it going to be? Are we going to get a return for our money? Our pension funds and the money which we invest, are we going to get a return to pay out our pensions?” So they will look at it as what kind of regime is it? Is it stable? Has it got an industrial future and a commercial future? If so, we invest—if not, we do not!
Of course, you get the speeches this morning that hit out. One had those in Lusaka. What we are concerned with is to try to be constructive, how best to bring it to an end, and whichever way you look at it, in the end you have got to have a discussion between the present government of South Africa and the black South Africans—and if I might say so, all South Africans—as to the kind of constitution and the kind of way in which they can all be properly involved in the process of government because you cannot judge people by the colour of their skin. [end p3]
Peter Snow
And is that something you think you can bring about, that dialogue?
Prime Minister
I think the way that we have suggested would be very much better. If you try to add sanctions to it, you will hit out and you will not get the kind of response that you wish.
Peter Snow
But what are you suggesting? What is your suggestion, some kind of a constitutional conference?
Prime Minister
No, that is for the government of South Africa. Look! I have for years been at this conference and for years they have been saying to me: “You were the colonial power; you keep out of our affairs!” All right! We gave independence to South Africa before the First World War and now they are saying: “You are the ex-colonial power, get back in and do something!” Well, that we cannot. We can talk, we can use the influence of other people who think similarly. We have done certain things, as you know, but you do have to be constructive if you are trying to help.
We cannot say who should be at a discussion between President Botha and the black South Africans, really because it is for the black South Africans to say who shall negotiate and it will not be just one or two—it will be a whole lot; a lot would wish to be there. We cannot say who, but we can say: [end p4] “That is the next thing. How can we help to get it going?”
Peter Snow
You might arrange it? You might offer to arrange it?
Prime Minister
I do not think that that would necessarily be the right thing to do, and when they get there, we cannot say what kind of constitution, what kind of arrangements they would come to. That is for them. Because, you see, we cannot tell them what to do. No-one can. What you can do is say: “Look! You know the time has come!” and the time has come for them to make this great step forward.