‘We gave the miners the best deal … should they get more by mob rule?’

Jim Mansell

Prime Minister, may I ask you first of all, because the dominant issue is obviously the miners' strike, why the Government has allowed such a bitter dispute to continue for so long, without direct intervention?

Prime Minister

Some people think that we could stop it, just like that. You can't stop this mob violence and bitterness except through the criminal law and through the police. You know full well the police are totally independent; they decide—or the Director of Public Prosecutions decides—who should be prosecuted. They have to get the evidence.

Now what this Government has done, is to give the best pay deal ever offered to the miners, the biggest investment, the best voluntary redundancy terms—so good there's never been a compulsory redundancy.

We had absolutely the best deal ever offered to a group of people.

Now that is Government's job when there's a nationalised industry. That's been done. When they say that they want even more things, are people suggesting that one should merely give in to mob violence? There'd be no future for this country if we did that.

All these excellent pay deals, investment, voluntary redundancies, are provided by the taxpayer. When the taxpayers have finished paying for the price of coal, the price of electricity, on top of that they then have to put their hands into their pockets and pay £1.3 billion subsidy a year to the miners.

That £1.3 billion is equal to 28½p on every gallon of petrol; it's equal to £2.50 on every retirement pension, every week, every year; and it's more than we pay to the whole of the doctors and dentists in the National Health Service. Now, are you suggesting that by mob rule people should be able to demand more? I hope not!

J M

No, I'm not suggesting that at all, but …   .

PM

If, then they still choose to stay out on strike, what are you suggesting that I can possibly do?

Exhausted

J M

What I am suggesting is that the British public is fed up with all the violence that it sees.

PM

So am I. And they expect the Government to do something about it.

Well, we have twelve thousand more policemen now than we did the day I took office. They are well equipped, well trained—that gives a pretty good idea of the kind of priority that we give to law and order.

Now, the enforcement of the criminal law is not a matter for the Government—the numbers of police, in terms of pay and conditions, are—but the way in which it is enforced must be left to the police themselves, and the way in which they use their resources must be for them. So, in a way, we're doing our bit. But I must point out that the National Union of Mineworkers is split—there are a very considerable number of miners working. Working, because they believe in democracy, because they believe in the future of their industry and because they work to keep their families.

J M

But it appears also to the average person, I'm sure, that Mr MacGregor has been very intractable. Is that so—and if so why isn't the Government saying: “Come along now, isn't it time we got a compromise?”

PM

But I do not agree! If you look at the arrangements and the nego [end p1] tiations in which Mr MacGregor is involved, if you look at the offers which were made, he has not been intractable. What he simply has said, and quite rightly, is that the National Coal Board must retain the right to manage, and after all he has to manage under certain rules which are set out in the Nationalisation of Industry Act. And he's also been entitled to point out, as Mr Walker pointed out, that every other Government has had to close loss-making pits, and that the procedures we use are exactly the same as were used before. Now that's not intransigent! That is saying “Look, all we want is to get back to normal!”

J M

But do you not, as a lady who has made a great play of the role of the family in modern society, feel for those families who are in mining communities where, if pits are closed, there is no alternative for them?

PM

I feel enormously for those families. We have not had a single compulsory redundancy. I can't emphasise this too much. It's not like big steel plants closing, where you might get thousands of people out of work at one time. In coalmining it's very distributed. Mr MacGregor has set up a Coal Board Enterprise Agency and training facilities in order to help those who wish to turn to another occupation. And, of course, with the amounts of redundancy they get quite a number of them could start up together and form a new business.

I might point out the problem in the future of a community when a coal mine is exhausted. I hope no one is suggesting that you can just mine stones in order to keep them working. That wouldn't give any future prospects for the next generation. You've got to put your money into something with a future.

J M

May I ask you about Mr Scargill? Is it true …

PM

I am not responsible for Mr Scargill, and I do not answer questions about Mr Scargill.

J M

Is he really such a …

PM

I am not responsible for Mr Scargill, and I do not answer questions.

J M

How will this dispute be ended?

PM

When more and more people go back to work. It's only a trickle at the moment. I hope more and more people will look at the actual offer.

J M

Can I turn then to the Labour Party?

PM

Well, I'm not responsible for the Labour Party …

J M

But as a leader of a political party do you have any sympathy for Mr Kinnock and the treatment he's received so far?

PM

May I answer for my party and my Government? How Mr Kinnock runs his affairs is a matter for him.

J M

Does it concern you that the Labour Party's inability to form an effective Opposition means that your own Government is not kept on its toes?

PM

I find plenty of opposition on Tuesdays and Thursdays. What's happened is that the opposition from the Labour Party is extremely Left wing, and in my time in Parliament it's got lefter and lefter and lefter! We have rowdier and rowdier times—possibly because of that phenomenon.

J M

And is that disappointing to you?

PM

I am not responsible for the Labour Party. I do not find that the Labour Party which I face now has a great deal in common with the Labour Party which was there when I went into the House of Commons. They seem to have ousted many of those whom one would regard as the true kind of person who was Labour.

The extreme Left seem to me not to have the same regard for democracy—and indeed they often seem to think that Parliamentary democracy is a kind of irrelevancy and take their battle outside.

Good record

J M

In view of that, how have you found your reception on Merseyside today? Some would say it is the home of Left-wing politics?

PM

I found it absolutely fantastic! Fantastically warm. And in the Garden Centre hundreds and hundreds of people came up to one and said: ‘Carry on with your good work.’

J M

How about Mr Hatton?

PM

Well, Mr Hatton and I aren't going to convert one another—we have a fundamentally different approach. Though as Prime Minister, I obviously have to see those who are on the local council when I come, regardless of what their politics are. The fact that we take different views does not prevent us from meeting.

J M

What will be your underlying theme at your Party's Conference next week?

PM

Well, I think you'd just better wait for that! I haven't made up the speech yet.

J M

Each year the public hears a lot at Conference about improving pensions, improving the Health Service, fighting crime, protecting the elderly, etcetera … are we really going to see some concrete results?

PM

As I indicated, there are now 12,000 more police than there were [end p2] when I came to office; that just illustrates the kind of priority we give to law and order. Pensions? They are at their best value ever. And they go up again, of course, in November.

There are more doctors and dentists in the National Health Service than there have ever been before, and more money spent on the Health Service, resulting in the treatment of more patients. The actual waiting lists, taken overall, are lower than they were—and that's a very good record.

Now, on education, there is more spent per pupil, than we've ever had before; so that's a pretty good record.

J M

Local Government is probably going to be one of the major headaches for your own administration in the next few months. Why are you convinced the abolition of the metropolitan authorities, including Merseyside County Council, is right?

PM

Absolutely right. They have comparatively few responsibilities now and I think those responsibilities are best discharged by the councils that already exist, or in some cases are handed over to different agencies, like the Arts, for example in London.

But if you look at your county council, if has no responsibility for education, no responsibility for housing—and those are perhaps two of the biggest things. Planning is a concurrent responsibility, it can be exercised by the one or by the other, and the fact is that there just is not a need for two local authorities having jurisdiction over one area.

J M

But one of the great claims that is made, I think, is that the reorganisation will make savings in terms of money and manpower, yet there seems to be little evidence that this will be so.

PM

It must inevitably be so, unless in fact you find a local authority that sets out deliberately to spend more. If you have not got local authority that sets out deliberately to spend more. If you have not got the extra staff, or the cost of the extra staff and overheads of running an upper-tier authority, there should inevitably be some savings. Of course, the first year we'll have your redundancy payments, and quite rightly. If you're terminating an authority then you must give good redundancy payments, to those who expected to have a job for a number of years and are not going to have one.

J M

Do you think in an area like Merseyside where district authorities side by side have had totally differing political views, they're going to be able to get on in joint boards?

PM

Well, they will have to. But I would not have thought there was that much politics in the fire service, for example.

J M

I think you pick on one where you're probably right, but I can think of others. Police for instance, which might be a bit more tricky.

PM

Well, the police are governed also don't forget, by the Police Act. The police are in complete charge of how they discharge their duties, operationally and the powers of local authorities are governed by the Police Act. The Home Secretary has certain powers as well.

J M

What is the Government going to do if a number of councils follow Liverpool City Council's example of this year, and pledge to break the law by coming up with illegal budgets?

New houses

PM

If they break the law, that is their responsibility, and they have to take the consequences which the law provides if they break it. You cannot run a country on the basis of if they're going to flout the law … Naturally the law provides penalties if they are found guilty of breaking it. But only if they're found guilty.

J M

Can I ask you about what you've seen today, in so far as it's three years since you've been in Liverpool? And obviously your last time was in less happy circumstances.

PM

Toxteth …

J M

That's right. Have you been impressed with what you've seen today and the progress that's been made?

PM

Well, one has seen a wide variety of housing. The co-operative housing I thought was absolutely splendid, where we've had the private and public sector joining together to refurbish old blocks of flats and turn them into very nice new flats. The Minster Court scheme is absolutely first class. We also came through some of the worst housing areas, where I stopped and went in. I saw them because a lady dashed out and said ‘Come and have a look at it,’ and frankly it was appalling. And I was astonished that comparatively new houses—they were not old—had been allowed to get into such a shocking condition of maintenance.

J M

May I turn to a couple of personal questions? By your stan [end p3] dards you took a long holiday this summer.

PM

Sixteen days.

J M

Was it as a result of strain over …

PM

No, no, not at all! Most people take a fortnight's holiday a year. I think it's the first time I've taken that amount. But I was not far away and knew that I could always get back, if anything happened. I had the chance to go to the Salzburg Music Festival, so I took it.

J M

Francis Pym said that it was probably more difficult for a government like yours to be operational when you had a large majority. Do you feel you've been under any greater strain since the last election?

PM

No.

J M

It's been very smooth running, as far as you're concerned?

PM

I don't think I've been under any greater strain. It's always a strain when you're in government.

J M

Finally, what hope can you bring to people in North Wales and Merseyside that jobs really are on the way?

PM

You can only create jobs if we have people who create businesses that sell products or services that the customer wants. Now this is absolutely fundamental. All others

Training

are jobs which are created by taking money away from other businesses and putting it into them. All right, we do a certain amount of both. We have the best youth training scheme this country's ever had, we've had it going for a year. It is really working well, enabling young people to be trained for the jobs which are going to need more training.

We do everything we can to encourage the growth of small business. We started up Enterprise Zones—Liverpool had an Enterprise Zone; we started up a Free Port—Liverpool had a Free Port. We have the Merseyside Development Corporation—there are only two in the country and Merseyside is one. The highest levels of regional assistance are available in Liverpool. And we have about 10 information and technology centres. All of these are things we're piling in to see that young people can get the best training as the jobs come along; and we're doing everything we can to help with new small businesses growing.

Now, that I believe is a long term way to go about it; otherwise, all you can do is take more money away from existing employers—and that often takes money away from the very people who know what business is like and have capacity to expand.

We are in an age of technology where you can produce the same amount with a smaller number of people in manufacturing, and therefore you do have to look for services for quite a lot of extra jobs. And, of course, you do have to look to the new kind of technologies.

But if existing products can be produced with a smaller number of people you've obviously got to look for new products which provide new jobs.