MG
It seems awfully frivolous, I feel, to be talking to you about gardens but you were talking on the Michael Aspel programme and I thought so rather wistfully about your feeling you couldn't garden any more and perhaps you could like to and I wonder if that suggests that you like gardening.
PM
Oh yes, I love gardening but not the sort of formal display gardening so much but really creating a garden of shrubs and with if possible just a little bit of woodland at the bottom of the garden with bluebells and primroses and things in. But then you do need to use some annuals to get some colour for the time of year when you can't otherwise and I've been lucky to have gardens with acid soil and I love creating the rhododendrons, azalea, heather garden.
MG
Do you like camelias?
PM
Oh yes, lovely and the magnolias. You have to be careful where you plant camelias because otherwise they can get frost on them. They mustn't have the early morning sun. Oh camelias are beautiful, their lovely shiny leaves as well, the leaf is important.
MG
And I know it's a grey day but already they're budding, you know, ready for spring.
PM
We should have had it here and next door. But you can just see here we have azaleas down here. That is lovely, absolutely beautiful. And we have some rhododendrons on the opposite corner. Now this is wisteria and you can see we do need some annuals to liven things up. Now there's a cherry tree there. This is a spring section of garden. Now we have to watch over there because there tends to be no sun against that wall so you'll quite a lot of hydrangeas—and the roses. Now we just get the sun when it's passing towards evening.
MG
What sort of size is the garden? Not very big is it?
PM
Well, you can see that it's 10, 11 and 12. Just let me take you into the next room. Bring your things if you can. [end p1]
Now we have this tree which has got a preservative order on it and nothing grows underneath it. Now we put annuals, we tend to put begonias. Do you see there's a space there? Again to throw up colour but I think this year I was given the Margaret Thatcher Rose, we're going to put some more roses. These two beds I made have been roses.
MG
How lovely. What are in those do we know?
PM
They're all, they're mixed and they're all strong growers. I did not have any new ones. I chose the strong growers and on the whole similar height because as you know that's the main thing to choose and roses that could stand all weathers and I got, you know, Mr. Essayon 's book.
MG
And it's been successful obviously.
PM
It's been very successful, because they're still lovely and there's always usually one on my desk every day from the garden and with luck it will go on until December. Now in the corner there we have, because we just get some sun round. You should see our rose garden at Chequers. These are the only rhododendrons we have but there's just enough sun because rhododendrons, you know, like quite a lot of water in the growing season.
MG
They get their feet under that soil.
PM
But we have our spring garden just a little bit bare and mainly up there.
MG
In the summer here and you've got a vine.
PM
Yes, we've got a vine.
MG
Making your own wine.
PM
We made that … . but you see this is just right for Trooping the Colour, because we have a stand out there and we have all the Ambassadors for the trooping and they come in and go out through there. And it covers up very well. But now your rhododendrons do very well and you plant them. You take quite a long time to mature. [end p2]
I've done two rhododendron gardens and it really takes—well you don't see very much for five years.
MG
I think you're absolutely right, I've just planted some myself Nothing shows.
PM
No, it takes some time to settle down and of course they have a very wild root. But I think … . And then all the time you're … . and it just wouldn't take. Then you go to Chelsea Flower Show and you see all sorts of ones that are new and perhaps they won't take in the place where you put them in your garden.
MG
Yes, I think it's wise to grow what you can grow.
PM
But you can liven them up enormously with annuals. Tobacco flower has done very well this year. We have a lovely rose garden at Chequers and I've just made what a call my hidden garden because it can't be seen—a little walled garden where I work quite a lot, and it had very bad soil in it so we put some good soil in and we've now put some shrubs round the outside. We've got quite a lot of clementis there. We have done … . rhododendrons and azaleas but we had to put in a lot of peat because it's not naturally acid and we … . And the walls all around because their … . not so acid as we can with clematis. Clematis go up the walls, through the roses really very well and the wisteria and the honeysuckle. The honeysuckle smells … . And I have got that desk put there because I went in just this Sunday to have a look and a ceanothus. They come out of course the blue flowers several times. We've just got some ceanothus we can put our little walled garden.
MG
I was wondering what you thought generally you liked about gardening. Would you call yourself a keen gardener or just interested? You sound very keen.
PM
I like gardening. I like it.
MG
What do you like about it?
PM
Oh, I think the fact that no matter what man does to nature the growth and the life is very strong. I mean really [end p3] you just have to plant ground cover for example and you'll see it going great strength but you look at it … . it really does show you the marvels of nature. I think it gives you a fantastic appreciation of the marvels of nature and you look at the strength of a growing point … of cement. And it really does give you—it's almost a philosophical and religious thing—just how strong life is and I must say in the work I do and a lot of people talk about nuclear and talk about doomsday terms and I just think life is not getting … It is so strong.
MG
I think every gardener knows that … .
PM
… . so strong. And of course the unbelievable beauty of some of the flowers. The solomon seal, you know that lovely curved frond with the little white, little bells almost, hanging down and then the fantastic grandiflora of the magnolia. And then the star magnolia at Scotney—we have four beautiful star magnolia trees—they come out early … . absolutely beautiful.
MG
Are you ever able to garden now?
PM
Not now, not very much. I go round and we look to see what we need and I will pull up a few weeds. In particular I find bindweed … it's a job to break it …
MG
Oh yes, it's the last week in my garden … . Actually I have discovered a new method with bindweed. A friend of mine told me you get little jars or little tubs and fill them with some awful poison like brushwood killer and then you put the lid on and make a hole in the lid and dip your bindweed in in the growing season and it does it a tremendous damage. But I think perhaps you have to keep this up a couple of years. For the first time this year I think I may be on top of bindweed … .
PM
It grows so fast …
MG
It defeats you. I won't be defeated by it, will you?
PM
Oh no, you must not because it really does choke … . [end p4]
MG
Yes it does. I must ask you whether you gardened in the past before you were so busy and doing things?
PM
No, it wasn't really until I was married and you have a garden of your own that you get really interested. You're not so interested as a child and somehow when you have a garden of your own you really …
MG
And did you garden when you first married?
PM
Well, not when we were first married because we lived in … when we were first married and then when the children were four we moved out and we took over a garden that was absolutely choked with brambles and weeds and everything. And our first … . I remember our first Easter there, because we moved in just about December 19, just before Christmas, we spent … we got on old clothes and thick really thick gloves and we were pulling up bramble and pulling up and pulling up … but it's very satisfying. You have to wait until it's quite wet and then you go out and one person digs and another pulls and … .
MG
Lovely bonfires really get rid of … .
PM
Yes. There's a little formal bit of the garden but the rest was really full of brambles and it took us quite a long time to get rid of the brambles and then we had to have a look at the trees and they were too thick in one part so we had to thin them out and we had no, there were no bluebells. There was a part of the garden which was a little wood and there were no bluebells and you know it took me a very long time to get bluebells to grow.
MG
Really …
PM
Yes, I don't know why but it did.
MG
But you did in the end.
PM
Yes, we got them going in the end.
MG
So how did you make that garden or how was it planned? Did you … . [end p5]
PM
Er, how was it planned? … . I wouldn't have done it the same again now but at the front we had some trees, so I'm afraid we just put grass under the trees. We took the hedges down at the front because we liked open plan. I had one big narrow bed of pansies, enormous bed and we snipped off their heads every day and, do you know, they last fantastically well. But by July they have finished so I then had another very large bed of dahlias with small, bigger, bigger, bigger and of course you take them up and dust them off and keep them. So that gave me my colour after July. And then in the front we were in fact very orthodox then—we had salvias, lobelia and alyssum. It does give a very, very good … But I would not go to that now. But I think for sheer delight the pansies are beautiful … . a very big bed, just pansies.
MG
Did you mix them?
PM
Yes, mixed. But you've got to deadhead them. Deadheading is terribly important in the garden. Dahlias … . yes, a very pleasant job. And then on the side because the house had a front, side and a back was the rose garden with a pond in the middle. And that gave us enormous pleasure. We had some water lilies in the pond and we did the customary mixture of climbers and floribunda and hybrid teas. Then you learn what grows and your learn what's leggy. You learn what gets blackspot, what gets mildew. Unfortunately we put Frencham in, my goodness you get so much mildew.
MG
Did you take them out then? Are you ruthless if they don't do … so many women I think are nervous about that and leave them in and grumble about them for life.
PM
No I didn't … it's a strong grower … but it did mean I should think about every ten days we were spraying and we sprayed heavily for blackspot. But again you learn. I would never put Frencham in again. Maskarade we put in, but I am just not so keen on it. On the other hand you will find some really old fashioned roses like Albertine are very, very good—they just go on and on. Some of the Elizabethan roses … they are beautiful. Golden Showers went very well with us, Peace of course grows very well everywhere and Elizabeth. Now Superstar came out about that time I remember. It's an enormously strong thing—you get tired of it. The colour is too [end p6] hard. Iceberg on the other hand—I planted Superstar and Iceberg because I said let's have some Iceberg to rest the eyes. But Iceberg plants are marvellous, really very good. And then we had a large lawn and then all round the back lawn I had a massive azalea bed and I did try … . because we had about an acre and a quarter … it was very hard work that garden … I did try one big herbaceous—they are a fantastic amount of work. Again I would not now go for herbaceous … that's why I now go for multi shrubs—get the colour the varied colour of the shrubs and annuals. But the delphiniums of course are breathtaking. Every single thing must be staked.
MG
It is a lot of work with life today …
PM
Herbaceous is a great deal of work. It does give you lovely flowers, a lovely display—the lupins, the golden rod—they just come and the delphiniums really are beautiful. But the staking and the amount of weeding you have to do. And then I went to chemical weeding … . And in the end you do try to get ground cover between or, what we used to do as there were some woods not far away from us, we used to go with wheelbarrows and get masses of leafmould—I used to do my dahlia bed every year with leafmould. Now it keeps the weeds down and it's, very, very good natural fertilizer. And I tell you another thing that's very difficult to get growing that I love and it took me quite a time—lily of the valley … .
MG
You like things that smell nice?
PM
Yes I do.
MG
Did your family garden … .?
PM
… and lavender. We have some lavender … we harvest it every year.
MG
Where's that from, Chequers?
PM
Yes, Chequers. We have two lavender beds and we harvest it every year. And it's very sweet smelling …
MG
Did your parents garden, did you have a garden as a child? [end p7]
PM
When we moved house, we used to live over the shop and moved to a house when one became vacant not very far up the road opposite and then we did use to garden more. And then we had a lawnmower, we used to go round with secateurs. And then we had a yukka, a spiky thing. I was never sure whether I liked it or hated it. And then we had a vegetable garden. Of course there's nothing like fresh vegetables.
MG
I was going to ask you about these two gardens, the one here and the one at Chequers. They are in fact secret gardens. You never hear about these—you hear about the one at Buckingham Palace …
PM
Well, this is not large. You must come in spring. But now we are getting more roses in and it's been quite a good summer garden. I ought to have got the gardener, now that I actually think of it, to put in little asters, they are very good. I always used to be sad when I saw the asters come. But I love the pink and purple, it's a different colour scheme. So they go on longer.
MG
I wonder if you are able to use the garden at all here, is it just a lovely backdrop to look out on or are you able to walk in it?
PM
Not a lot, no. You can't sit out and work there, everyone can see you.
MG
What about at Chequers? Are you able to use that?
PM
Oh yes. We have some woodland there and it's full of bluebells. And we have some lovely flowering shrubs. And that gives me enormous delight but I go and work in my little hidden garden.
MG
Oh do you, is that the one you planted yourself?
PM
I can tell you how it was made. In 1971 a swimming pool was given when President Nixon went to Chequers and The Queen went and Annenberg very kindly gave money for a swimming pool and in digging out the swimming pool they flung a lot of the dirt just by the side. It was not good soil and some grass was put and just a little on the side and it was not good because it was bad soil. So we had to start again.
MG
Did you design this? [end p8]
PM
Yes, it's not designed elaborately because there is some very nice York stone right round the edge of that garden, very nice York stone. What we did was bring the York stone in and put it right round the edge. It gave me two big corner beds for my—it was a pity not to use the York stone—for shrubs. And it gave me two side beds with the rose climbers up the walls and clematis and various other shrubs. We've got a fig we planted, which has been there for quite some time. And azaleas which we put in. There's a shrub which I simply cannot identify—its leaves are quite long and it has about five [word missing?] up and there are little white flowers on it. I must get the gardener to see.
MG
It could be something sort of rare.
PM
Yes, it could but it will not have come up before because there was a not very nice tree obscuring that corner—and very rarely do I take trees down, but it wasn't a nice tree, it was overshadowing all the wall shrubs in that corner so we did take it up. And it's much much better. And we have put our shrubs in this first year, apart from the ones that had been in and we have put in quite a bit of heather and we have put in some little annuals—you know the verbena and the bright colours. And then we have a really rather beautiful shaped seat which is the focal point along the back wall. It's a nice little garden you really ought to come and see it. I sit there a lot, there's a telephone point just in the swimming pool and I work a lot there.
MG
I wondered what your thoughts were when you first saw the Chequers garden, can you remember? Did you think how awful, I don't really like it like this?
PM
Oh no, it has a lovely formal rose garden which is beautiful. And then the informal lawns fading into the landscape. Yes, it's quite a big garden. But we do not like too much of it formal. You see, every Prime Minister plants a tree and so there are quite a lot of trees dotted about on the grass.
MG
Have you planted one yet?
PM
I've planted a lime tree.
MG
Can you choose? [end p9]
PM
Yes, you can choose. I planted a lime tree because there was a lime tree outside my house I remember as a child and we haven't got many limes. Many people have planted beeches which do very well there. Beeches and oaks and I thought we'd have a lime. It's very difficult not having acid soil there. You know an awful lot of shrubs are acid and I wanted to put in a whole lot of flowering shrubs but I've not been able to. And I did try to plant a copper beech. We've got some lovely copper beeches.
MG
Are Prime Minister's able to alter the gardens at all?
PM
Yes, you could but you don't alter for the sake of altering.
MG
Is it your sort of garden?
PM
One would never have such a large garden.
MG
Do you have a vision of a dream garden, what is your perfect garden, formal or …
PM
No, it would have a lot of plants and it would always have a hidden part. I used to think that I liked a very large lawn and then shrubs all to the side. I now have [word missing] gardens quite a lot and I always think that you need to be able to see something and then you want a way through to go to something else. So that you don't see it all at once. So I would never now do a whole thing. I do like a rose garden. Now there you see this is a whole one with various different things. It does not get a lot of sun this garden. You like sometimes half way across a rockery or some little walls with plants growing in between and some shrubs and take you into another type of garden, perhaps a white garden. And it is so restful. White, three things, a white and green garden, you want to watch the architecture of trees too. And the architecture and colour of leaves. You can get fantastic hosters. I, in my woods at Dormers, put some hoster leaves because they grow in the woods but they give you beautiful shapes and colour.
MG
Would your ideal garden be an English country garden or would it be in a sunnier place? Or would you always want it in this country?
PM
I always want some shade. Always have some shade in my [end p10] garden.
MG
You wouldn't want it abroad. Do you think gardens that you've seen abroad are better than ours or would you like an English garden?
PM
No, I would like an English garden. I like it to have a feeling of dampness.
MG
I was going to ask you whether you like a flower garden or whether you are a fruit and vegetable lady?
PM
I'm not a fruit and vegetable lady but some things grow well and easily—beans grow marvellously. And what you have to learn, one always learns, we had beans—is not to grow too much. Everyone's got beans at the same time and you are trying to give away beans and everyone's trying to give you beans. You don't want to plant too much. You want to plant your lettuce at different times. I like the Webb lettuce myself, I think they are marvellous. We did have a go at asparagus. They take up a lot of room and I personally don't think they are worth it. They take up too much room. I did have a go at a celery bed but that's quite tricky. If you're not careful you spend far more on … But new potatoes are lovely. And beans and peas are very good.
MG
Do you grow your own vegetables at Chequers?
PM
Oh yes. We always have a kitchen garden. We always have fresh vegetables and they taste quite different. And brussel sprouts again grow quite well.
MG
I wonder whether they grow them with fertilisers or use a compost.
PM
We use some of our own compost—you make it obviously. It takes three or four years to get good compost from leaves. We shall use a great deal of natural fertiliser. It's better gardening.
MG
Its better gardening and it feels right, doesn't it?
PM
You gather up your leaves, you gather up your things and they rot and that's nature's way of making it much better.