PRIME MINISTER
Engagements
Q1. Mr. Dover
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 8 July.
The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher)
This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet and had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House I shall be having further meetings later today.
Mr. Dover
Does my right hon. Friend accept that the recovery of the country will depend to a great degree on the productivity and performance of engineering firms, particularly the smaller ones? If so, will she find time today to discuss with her right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry the possible reintroduction of the [column 453]small engineering firms investment scheme, which was withdrawn a few weeks ago because it was too successful, and under which firms could obtain a one-third grant towards investment in new machinery?
The Prime Minister
I agree with my hon. Friend that the small engineering firms investment scheme introduced in the Budget was very successful. The allocation for it then was £20 million, which has had to be increased to £30 million. However, we have had to close the scheme to applications from the end of May. I shall have a word with Patrick Jenkinmy right hon. Friend, but, in the meantime, other funds are available for high technology engineering and I hope that applications will be made for those.
Mr. Ashton
Will the right hon. Lady find time to look at Tuesday's Hansard, in which she condemned ASLEF for trying to stick to a 1919 agreement? Why is it fine for her to fight to the bitter end in the Falklands for an 1832 agreement and have a full inquiry into the matter, but refuse to do anything about the ASLEF strike?
The Prime Minister
The two things bear no comparison to one another.
Mr. Adley
Is my right hon. Friend aware that, while many people will feel that the wrangling over responsibility for the Falklands has certain party political overtones, there is, none the less, universal acclaim for our forces? Can she say whether any decision has yet been made on the award of a campaign medal for those forces who took part?
The Prime Minister
Yes. The Queen has approved the institution of a South Atlantic medal for those who served in the South Atlantic. At present, the details are contained in a White Paper which is at the printers, and which I hope will be laid before the House next week.
Mr. James Hamilton
With regard to the point made by the hon. Member for Chorley (Mr. Dover) about the engineering industry, will the Prime Minister concede that the first casualty in any economic crisis is the construction industry, particularly in Scotland, where there are hundreds of thousands of people unemployed? Is she aware that if public funds were made available these people could be used to the best possible advantage of the country, getting them off supplementary benefit and working for the benefit of the country?
The Prime Minister
My right hon. and learned Friend Sir Geoffrey Howethe Chancellor of the Exchequer introduced a package for the construction industry in the last Budget. I know that the hon. Member and many other hon. Members wish that it could be larger. However, it could be larger if we spent less on current expenditure and allocated more for investment.
Mr. Cockeram
May I remind the Prime Minister of two recent public inquiries, neither of which has been followed up, and ask her whether she shares the uneasy feeling of the country that the Falklands inquiry could have a similar ending? Perhaps she will recall the Bingham inquiry into sanction-breaking in Rhodesia, and the Crown Agents inquiry, which cost the British taxpayer over £100 million, both of which revealed grave misdemeanours, but neither of which was followed through? Is she aware that there is concern in the country that the Falklands inquiry could lead to the same result?
[column 454]The Prime Minister
Certainly the Crown Agents inquiry was prolonged, but it really consisted of two inquiries. I agree with my hon. Friend in his criticism of the length of time. The Bingham inquiry, too, was quite long, and it was suggested that it should be followed by another, but that suggestion was not approved by the House. There has been a widespread demand for an inquiry over the Falklands. A number of people were involved—some of whom resigned—in the Falkland Islands issue, and they feel that they should have the privilege of an inquiry. I must take that fact into account, together with the widespread demand for an inquiry.
Mr. David Steel
Are the Government still hoping to bid for the Nissan car company to set up its European manufacturing basis in this country? If so, what will be the right hon. Lady's response to the executives of that company who have criticised British industrial relations and our social class system?
The Prime Minister
I understand that the Nissan car company has not yet decided whether to continue its efforts to find a plant in Europe, whether to continue its efforts to come here, or whether it should postpone its searches for the time being. On the whole, Japanese management, when it has come to this country, has been most successful, and I hope that the Japanese will take the recent improvements in industrial relations in the private sector very much into account in any decisions that they make.
Q2. Mr. Leighton
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 8 July.
The Prime Minister
I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Leighton
Will the Prime Minister tell the House today whether the shameful projected sale of Britoil will be by fixed price or by tender?
The Prime Minister
Such decisions are not taken until much nearer the time. We shall decide in the light of all previous experience and the advice that we receive.
Mr. Shersby
Will my right hon. Friend take time today to study the wise words of the hon. Member for Derby, South (Mr. Johnson), which appear on the Order Paper as an amendment to early-day motion 596, in which he condemns the unjustified nature of the ASLEF strike and the hardship that it is causing to thousands of commuters?
The Prime Minister
I agree that the ASLEF strike is causing hardship to the travelling public and to many people whose small businesses depend on the railway service for freight or for getting supplies to their business. It is also very much against the future interests of the railways themselves. I hope that those who are having ASLEF meetings shortly will take that factor into account.
Mr. Foot
In the light of the reply that the right hon. Lady gave a minute or two ago about the sale of Britoil, will she say how she intends to ensure that the Government avoid the scandal that was associated with Amersham International? In view of the legislation that the Secretary of State for Energy has framed, will she make sure that he will make a statement to the House on how the matter is to be dealt with in the coming weeks, so that the country is not subjected to a similar scandal when the House is not sitting?
[column 455]The Prime Minister
One can either put a sale out to fixed price or to tender. Many people are sometimes very wise in retrospect about the fixed price process. It is astonishing that many who are wise in retrospect do not criticise that same price when it is published in prospect.
Mr. Foot
Is the right hon. Lady really proud of what happened with Amersham International? Will she attempt to satisfy the House on the other matter, and get the Secretary of State to make a statement to the House before the recess about how the Government propose to proceed?
The Prime Minister
Nigel LawsonMy right hon. Friend may not be ready to make such a statement before the recess. Nevertheless, it is important, if the market is right, that we should proceed with the sale. One thing is particularly important, and it is that those who work in the company should have a chance to purchase the shares. That factor should be taken into account in the method that is chosen. I say again that far more questions were asked of me after the sale of Amersham International than were ever asked of me about the price before the sale.
Mr. Nicholas Winterton
Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are Conservative members who are concerned about the terms of reference of the inquiry into the Falklands Islands conflict, and that many of us believe that the inquiry should go back over at least 20 years, so that the civil servant niggers in the woodpile in the Foreign Office who have sold British interests down the river over many years are identified and their names made public, and so that not only Ministers resign, but that civil servants are moved to lesser positions where they cannot continue to damage British interests?
The Prime Minister
We shall be debating this matter later, but my hon. Friend will notice in the terms of reference that the Committee can take into account all such factors from previous periods as may be relevant to the questions that it has to decide.
Mr. Winteron
And made public?
The Prime Minister
It is for the Committee to make public what it wishes, subject to the conditions that we shall put on publication of items such as Cabinet papers or security documents with a classification. I shall go into detail on the matter in the debate.
Q3. Mr. Cunliffe
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 8 July.
The Prime Minister
I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Cunliffe
Is the Prime Minister aware of the serious anomaly that would exist if nurses were to accept the Government's revised pay offer? Now that phase 2 of the Government's fees and lodging allowance is to be activated, it means that some auxiliary nurses will be 68p a week worse off, staff nurses will be 1p a week better off, the average nurse will be 30p a week worse off, and ward sisters 69p a week worse off. Does the right hon. Lady agree that this is a serious anomaly and that it is rather unjust? As 60,000 out of 420,000 nurses will be affected, will she ask the Minister to reconsider the position?
The Prime Minister
The precise pattern of the pay award under the general 7½ per cent. increase is worked out by the Whitley council, and the offer is made by it. How the percentage varies from one grade of nurse to another is again a matter for the council to work out. [column 456]
As for charges and prices, we all have to face increased charges and prices, and that is perhaps a good reason for trying to keep down some of the public sector increases.
Mr. Peyton
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the suggestion made by my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) that the Foreign Office is a nest of spies and incompetents is more useful as a reflection of the state of his mind than as an indication of the true state of affairs?
The Prime Minister
I think that it would be as well to await the conclusions of the review, the setting up of which we have not yet debated.
Mr. Foster
Is not the Prime Minister betraying the trusteeship of the national interest that is placed in her hands by the country by refraining from bringing together the two parties in the railway dispute? If the British Railways Board is looking after the railway's interests and ASLEF is rightly looking after its members' interests, who is looking after the country's interests? Is that not the right hon. Lady's job?
The Prime Minister
The responsibility for running British Rail for the benefit of the travelling public and those who use British Rail for freight purposes is vested in the British Railways Board. It is for that board to run the railways according to the terms with which it is charged. Many people who work for the railways—indeed, the vast majority—are ready and willing to carry on, and I hope that that will soon apply to ASLEF—as it does at the moment to the NUR.
Mr. Teddy Taylor
Is my right hon. Friend aware that, along with hundreds of others, I travelled here today from Southend by train? Does my right hon. Friend think it appropriate to offer a word of encouragement and congratulation to the increasing number of train drivers who are continuing to serve the travelling public?
The Prime Minister
We were very pleased when the NUR took the decision that it did. As my hon. Friend suggests, I should like to offer encouragement and congratulations to those ASLEF drivers who are at work, carrying out their duties to the travelling public. They are serving themselves, their families and the railways far better than those who are out on strike.
Q4. Mr. Meacher
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 8 July.
The Prime Minister
I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Meacher
Will the Prime Minister explain what sense it can possibly make to give such unquestioning support to the British Railways Board when the introduction of seven-to-nine hour flexible rostering will, according to British Rail's figures, save less that £½ million this year, which is less that one-tenth of 1 per cent. of the likely British Rail deficit, and when savings over the next three years will still be only £9 million, when the dispute is costing £9 million a day? Is that not a ludicrously false economy? Does it not suggest that the Prime Minister's real purpose in this dispute is to break ASLEF?
The Prime Minister
No. It suggests that those who are charged with the responsibility of running the railways should be allowed to get on with it. Conservative Members have not the arrogance to assume that they know how to [column 457]run everything better than those charged with the duty of managing. The flexible rostering issue has been through all the railway negotiating procedures, including a lengthy and detailed examination by the Railway Staff National Tribunal under Lord McCarthy. The hon. Gentleman's strictures presumably apply to Lord McCarthy as well.
Mr. Jack Straw (Blackburn)
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. During Prime Minister's Questions the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) described the [column 458]generality of civil servants in the Foreign Office as “niggers” . May we have a ruling, Mr. Speaker, on whether that is accepted parliamentary language when the officials concerned cannot answer back?
Mr. Speaker
Order. The hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) used the phrase that has been used many times and on which I do not wish to rule. The expression he used was “Nigger in the woodpile” .