4.43 pm
Mr. James Callaghan(Cardiff, South-East)
The right hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) has made a sombre speech, with parts of which I agree. However, I cannot applaud the spirit in which he made it.
It is correct to point out the difficulties with which the Royal Navy has been charged in the mission that the Government have given it. It is correct to ask questions about it. But there must be a spirit in which the House approaches the matter that makes it clear that the position of those living in the Falkland Islands must be protected and restored. Moreover, aggression that has been condemned by the United Nations must be repelled and set on one side. The right hon. Member for Yeovil is an old friend of mine, but his speech was rather defeatist.
Since the House met last Saturday—I regret that I was not present—the fleet has sailed. That will alter the nature and temper of today's debate. The Navy has been given the task of restoring and re-establishing British administration——
Sir Bernard Braine
Sovereignty.
Mr. Callaghan
—or is it sovereignty? Which is it? The Foreign Secretary used the word “administration” . To my recollection, the Prime Minister also said “administration” last Saturday. We should have an answer immediately, because it would clear up much misapprehension. I was half intending to interrupt the Foreign Secretary to ask whether there was a significant difference in the meanings of the two words. Will he tell us now whether by “administration” he means “sovereignty” ?
Mr. Pym
I was quoting my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. She used the word “administration” —advisedly, I believe. Within two days I am not competent to make a precise definition of any difference that may exist there. The intention is to restore the rights of the people of the Falkland Islands. The words that we phrased, we believe, describe that accurately.
Mr. Callaghan
The Prime Minister had no difficulty in muttering the word “sovereignty” when I put the question. She could put the matter beyond dispute if she will now make it clear that that is what she means.
The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher)
I shall quote from my speech on Saturday:
“We have absolutely no doubt about our sovereignty, which has been continuous since 1833. Nor have we any doubt about the unequivocal wishes of the Falkland Islanders, who are British in stock and tradition” —[Official Report, 3 April 1982; Vol. 21, c. 633–4.]
I regard the Falkland Islands as being still British and us as still having sovereignty. I tried to make it clear in that speech that an invasion, an unprovoked aggression, has not altered and does not alter the fact and the law of British sovereignty over those islands.
Mr. Callaghan
I am much obliged to the right hon. Lady, but I am not sure that she has cleared the matter up. [column 972]British sovereignty, as she said in her speech on Saturday, has been clear and sustained by everyone for 150 years. But there is a difference between sovereignty and administration. It is not possible, as I understand it, to equate those words.
For example, if the islands were handed back under some form of leasing arrangement—I understand that that has been discussed by the Foreign Office—and then leased back to Britain for our administration, would that solution satisfy the Prime Minister?
Mr. Percy Grieve(Solihull)
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Callaghan
I ask that question in no spirit of attempting to trap the right hon. Lady. I believe that the House wants to know what is the nation's objective in the matter on which we have sent the Royal Navy.
The Prime Minister
It is the Falkland Islanders' wishes that are paramount. In every negotiation—if the James Callaghanright hon. Gentleman calls it that, and I have called it that—that we had, we had some of the Falkland Islands Council with us. They were with us in New York. It is their wishes that must be paramount.
Mr. Callaghan
I do not press the Prime Minister further this afternoon. I do not regard her answers as satisfactory. I shall come later to ways in which I believe that these issues must be solved and worked out. We have embarked on a most difficult and dangerous exercise which carries very great risk.
Mr. Grieve
rose——
Mr. Callaghan
I have had a number of exchanges with the Conservative Front Bench. I think that I should try to get on, in view of the number of hon. Members who wish to speak.
The world has shown a remarkable and, to me, rather surprising understanding of Britain's position. With resolution 502 at the United Nations, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, France and the European Commission all supported us in the position that we have taken. So far, so good. But when I hear Government spokesmen use the words “we are ahead on points” , I must say that I feel a little squeamish. This is not a game of tennis. We are engaged on a most serious operation.
This afternoon, I wish to look ahead, but before doing so I wish to have a retrospective look. If the right hon. Member for Yeovil is correct, as he was, in saying that there has been shame, sorrow and humiliation, and if, as he half suggested, we have to swallow that shame, sorrow and humiliation—[Hon. Members: “And anger.” ]—and anger and outrage, it is not too much to ask whether we should ever have been here at all.
Mr. Peyton
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. I did not say that we had to swallow anger, shame and rage. I suggested that they could be bad counsellors.
Mr. Callaghan
I agree absolutely. There is no need for a dispute between us on that.
The Prime Minister's defence is that she did not know and could not possibly know and, until Argentina had taken the decision to invade, she could not possibly take action, but that is not the real question. The real question is this. Was the available evidence of such a character that she should prudently have taken precautions at an earlier date? My answer to that question must be “Yes” . [column 973]
It was the concern of the Government. The right hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Amery) asked a very important question on 3 March—a month before the invasion—in which he referred to the aggressive statements appearing from the Argentine and asked what steps were in hand to ensure the protection of the islands. The reply given conveyed the Government's anxieties. The then Minister, the hon. Member for Shoreham (Mr. Luce) said that the Government felt “deep concern” and that it caused “deep anxiety” . If that was the feeling in the Foreign Office, I should have expected some precautions to be taken. It seems frivolous not to take precautions if there was deep concern and anxiety about the position.
That is my first charge against the Government and particularly against the Prime Minister on this matter. Today our fleet is sailing towards hostilities that could have been prevented. That is my case. I shall not spend time on the fact that we are sending an aircraft carrier that has already been sold to meet cash limits from a port that is to be closed and with 500 sailors holding redundancy notices in their pockets. I find that humiliating, too, and I hope that other hon. Members feel the same.
This, if it ever came to it, would be the unnecessary war—a war that need not have taken place and which yet, I trust, will not take place. In my view, the seeds of the present invasion were sown when our will to protect the people of the Falkland Islands seemed to be weakened in in the eyes of the Argentines by the announcement on 25 June 1981 that HMS “Endurance” was to be withdrawn. I know, and we all know, that we had a policy of high risk in relation to the Falklands. We always said that we would have the symbol of protection there as an earnest of our determination. That is what the deterrent is all about in that sphere, as in others. It is a symbol of our determination. I believe that it was that card that was thrown away at that time.
The Government were warned time after time about this. For example, on 9 February, I asked the Prime Minister a question about the withdrawal of HMS “Endurance” and I warned that it could have serious consequences. The Prime Minister replied:
“My right hon. Friend … felt that other claims on the defence budget should have greater priority.” —[Official Report, 9 February 1982; Vol. 17, c. 857.]
Sir Nicholas Bonsor
rose——
Mr. Callaghan
I shall give way in a moment, but I wish to finish this point.
I cannot conceive of a more naive invitation to a military dictator to invade than to say that there are other, higher claims on our defence budget. When I consider the cost that the present expedition will eventually bring home in bills, I can only say that we have wasted a great deal of funds and resources by not taking precautions at the time when we should have done.
Sir Nicholas Bonsor
I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) for giving way, particularly as my right hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) thought fit not to do so. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will accept that now is not the time for an inquest on how we are arrived at this position. In the interests of our country, it is imperative that the House should now show its united resolution to see the sovereignty of the Falkland Islands returned to our people.
[column 974]Mr. Callaghan
I agree with the hon. Gentleman, but it is also the responsibility of the House to declare its judgment of those who sit on the Government Front Bench. I yield to no one in my determination in these matters, but I also want to have confidence in those sitting on that Bench. At the moment, I do not have it, and I shall be making proposals on that.
Of course the Foreign Office and the Ministry of Defence receive the telegrams and the intelligence assessments, but so does the Prime Minister. Every week, she has all the major telegrams, all the intelligence assessments and, if she wishes, the raw material on which those assessments are made. If I may say so to the right hon. Lady, they are for her guidance. It is for her to use her judgment on the information that is put before her, and on this occasion she made a gross blunder. I know that Conservative Members always throw a protective cloak around the Prime Minister when she is attacked, but it is necessary to question her past in this matter if we are to consider what part she is to play in the future.
If Conservative Members' words mean anything, they must understand that we are living in a period of half peace and half war. Technically, it is a state of war, but in fact it is half peace and half war. I tell the Prime Minister that there cannot be business as usual. As these preparations mount and as an unprecedented diplomatic effort has to be undertaken by the Foreign Secretary, it will not be possible to go on running Departments as they have been run in the past.
This aspect of the matter is important if we are to avoid further humiliation and possible defeat, which would be worse even than the present situation. What is the division of responsibility now? I congratulate the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary. He has a remarkable and wonderful job to do. I certainly enjoyed it very much and I am sure that he will, too. But let us consider his responsibilities. He has not only the Falkland Islands to think about. He has a very large problem on his hands concerning the European Community and the budget. That, too, will take up some of his time. There are other problems with which he will be concerned, although I dare say that Britain's voice will not be heard so loudly now in the Middle East or even, regrettably, on Poland because the Foreign Secretary will have to play himself in on a number of those issues.
The Secretary of State for Defence has a tremendous task to do to ensure that the fleet is properly provisioned and supplied and that its orders are properly worked out. He cannot co-ordinate all those matters.
The Home Secretary is sitting next to the Secretary of State for Defence. He faces one of our greatest problems, which is law and order and how we deal with crime in our inner cities. The Prime Minister, with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, has to try to run the whole economy as well as she can. Those are big and important jobs. At the same time the Prime Minister will have to undertake the most difficult task that the country has faced since Suez, which is: how do we get peace with honour? That task will demand all the time and attention that can be given to it.
In our national interest and in the interests of those who are now steaming towards possible action with resultant deaths on either side or both sides, it is necessary that we should adapt the Government machine to that possible task. I urge the Prime Minister to do what has been done on earlier occasions—not only to establish a group of Ministers inside the Cabinet who will have to take full [column 975]responsibility for handling these matters, but to ensure that a Minister not distracted by day-to-day affairs, as other Ministers' will be, can take charge and co-ordinate this interlocking and difficult task that we must face.
We have given ourselves a self-imposed ultimatum of a fortnight. It is a fortnight before the fleet arrives at the Falkland Islands. It will not get there, turn round and come back if there has been no settlement. I cannot believe that. Therefore, we have a difficult role.
It is hard to say this to the Prime Minister, but I intend to say it. I do not believe that the Front Bench as constituted at the moment has the time or the experience to handle these matters when they are taken in conjunction with the other important issues that Ministers will have to face. There are other Conservative Members of experience who should be invited and charged with the task of co-ordinating this difficult problem of interlocking diplomacy and preparation for possible war.
It is absolutely vital that the Navy should understand what are its orders and that we should know exactly what objective it is fulfilling. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) asked, are we to go for a full-scale landing? That is not for my right hon. Friend to answer. It is for the Government to answer. It is not for us at this stage to become involved in these matters. All of us can see the difficulties. The Government must give us and the fleet a clear lead on those issues and on the limitation of the fleet's orders. The Navy must be empowered to use the minimum force. My right hon. Friend was correct to say that if we cannot achieve our objective in any other way, the fleet must be empowered to use minimum force to do two things. The first is to ensure that the islanders' wishes to live in freedom are met and the second is to ensure that aggression does not pay.
Reference has been made to the position of the United States. I welcome its intervention. It can bring greater pressure to bear upon the aggressor than anyone else. However, this should be made clear to the United States. The United Nations' resolution demands an immediate withdrawal of all Argentine forces from the Falkland Islands. That is the initial condition that must be met if the United States is to start putting forward conditions that we are asked to accept.
I agree with the right hon. Member for Yeovil that after the troops have been withdrawn we can begin discussions on the problem that for years has beset every Foreign Secretary as well as the Falkland Islanders who have lived under the shadow of the Argentines so that they can regulate their relations with the Argentines. Then there can be a period of peace which, incidentally, would enable the Falkland Islanders to develop their prosperity. Those things can come only once the troops have been withdrawn. Let that be made clear to the United States in any effort that it undertakes.
I wish to say one other thing that perhaps will not be palatable. We shall be scrutinised by the world. One of the issues for a co-ordinating Minister in conjunction with whatever group of Ministers is made responsible for these matters is to decide quickly whether Britain intends to declare a war zone. I dare say that even now enterprising newspapers are chartering aircraft to fly over the fleet so that journalists can see what is happening when it reaches the South Atlantic. I am sure that Soviet submarines will be poking their noses in—possibly submarines from other [column 976]fleets, too—perhaps from friendly nations. If we want to avoid third party incidents, one of the earliest decisions that the Government must reach is whether to declare a war zone.
I have mentioned those matters in passing because I want the House to realise—I believe that it does—the tremendous complications that ensue once one sends the fleet on its way, especially when one has only a fortnight before action will be joined in some form or another. Those are issues that the Government must solve and bring to our notice.
I regret that the Prime Minister has not spoken today. She should be in personal charge of all these matters. When Sir Anthony Eden was involved in Suez, he came to the House every day and made his own report. The right hon. Lady knows that Sir Winston Churchill personally assumed responsibility. We look to the Prime Minister to give the lead on these matters and assume responsibility for what is taking place in all those areas, whatever ministerial co-ordination may be achieved. The right hon. Lady has made a mistake—if I may say so—by not taking that lead and speaking to the House.
It is our responsibility to put jingoism on one side. As the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton (Mr. Clark) said recently, we are talking about a peaceful and inoffensive community of British subjects, which has been occupied by a repressive and Fascist regime. Those people have been threatened with 60 days' imprisonment without trial if they show disrespect. The hon. Gentleman said that we must react to that. Of course the hon. Gentleman is right. Of course we must react. Britain must do its best to secure peace with honour. Despite our heavy criticisms of the Prime Minister and the Government, we shall support that end.