PRIME MINISTER
The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher)
Just before I reply to questions, I know that many right hon. and hon. Members will wish me to express our deep sorrow at the death of Lord Butler of Saffron Walden—a great politician and statesman—and to extend our sympathy to his family. I understand that the whole House will be given an opportunity tomorrow to pay full and formal tribute to the late Lord Butler.
Economists
Q1. Mr. Renton
asked the Prime Minister whether she is satisfied with the number of economists in Government service.
The Prime Minister
No, Sir. In 1964 there were only 21 economists in Government service. The growth in numbers peaked in 1978 at 408 across the 20-odd Government Departments in which they serve. In recent years there has been a steady decline in numbers to 379 in October 1981. It is expected that by April 1984 the number will be about 350 to 360.
Mr. Renton
While thanking my right hon. Friend for that answer, may I ask whether, as the number of Government economists has increased 18 times in 18 years, she would consider whether there is an analogy with the Spanish empire, whose downfall is attributed to the fact that one in six adult males was in the Catholic Church? Rather than employ more non-productive economists, will my right hon. Friend redouble her efforts to increase the number of job and wealth-creating industrialists in Britain?
The Prime Minister
While not following my hon. Friend on his historical excursions, may I say that I wholly agree that we should concentrate on productive investment in industry and commerce and thereby create real and genuine jobs for the future. May I point out, in defence of some of the economists, that the good economists take the same view as I do.
Mr. Ioan Evans
As the House prepares to hear the Budget speech, does the Prime Minister agree that it is not a question of the number of economists in Government service but rather that the economists are beginning to give her the wrong advice? Does the right hon. Lady agree now that, after nearly three years in office, the Government should abandon their monetarist policies and go back to policies that have been pursued by previous Labour and Conservative Governments to try to restore full employment, to deal with inflation and to get growth in the economy again?
[column 719]The Prime Minister
Monetarism means honest money. It means that the money is backed properly by the production of goods and services. If I might return to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Renton), one reason why Spain fell was that she got into great trouble with inflation.
Mr. Cormack
Notwithstanding the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Renton), does my right hon. Friend agree that the Pope is worth 379 economists?
The Prime Minister
The Pope is a very distinguished and good Head of State and Head of Church. I hope that he will have a successful visit to our country.
Mr. Foot
Will the right hon. Lady be good enough to name any of those economists who agree with her, or does she think that she would convict herself of slander if she did so?
The Prime Minister
I could name many—perhaps rather more than the right hon. Gentleman thinks. Suppose we start with Alan Walters and go on with Professor Patrick Minford?
Public Trustee
Q2. Mr. Michael Morris
asked the Prime Minister whether she has any plans to meet the Public Trustee.
The Prime Minister
I have no such plans.
Mr. Morris
Is my right hon. Friend aware that the financial performance of the Public Trustee leaves much to be desired? Bearing in mind my right hon. Friend's great success in denationalisation, does she not think that it would be in the interests of the beneficiaries and the nation if the work of the Public Trustee were wound up and given over to the private sector?
The Prime Minister
If the beneficiaries wish to transfer their trusts from the Public Trustee to the private sector, of course they are able to do so. Some take that course. My hon. Friend is right in thinking about the possibility of transfer to the private sector. An attempt was made to transfer the work to the banks in 1972, but, alas, that was not successful. In the meantime, the work of the Public Trustee is declining, but he is the trustee of last resort. Until we can make proper arrangements for other people to do his work he will have to remain the Public Trustee. If such arrangements are possible, we shall consider them.
Mr. Bidwell
If the right hon. Lady finds time to meet the Public Trustee, will she meet the auditor of the London borough of Barnet——
Mr. Speaker
Order. This is not an open question. It is about the Public Trustee.
Liverpool
Q3. Mr. Steen
asked the Prime Minister when she plans next to visit Liverpool.
The Prime Minister
I have at present no plans to do so.
Mr. Steen
Will my right hon. Friend denounce the scurrilous remarks made yesterday by the Labour candidate for Liverpool, Wavertree, who advocated [column 720]revolution, social unrest, civil war and bloodshed on our streets? Does she agree that such statements by the Militant Left-wing in Liverpool and on Merseyside drive private investment and private enterprise out of Merseyside and sows the seeds for more social unrest and unease?
The Prime Minister
I denounce and condemn any such remarks by whomsoever they are made. If they were made by the Communist and Fascist Left, that does not surprise me. Equally, I denounce it strongly. Such remarks are designed to bring to an end our parliamentary democracy and the age-old institutions that have served Britain so well. They also drive away productive investment from an area that needs it, which means that jobs do not go there. That may be the objective of such people, who are the great destroyers. Some of them prefer social unrest.
Mr. Alton
I agree with the Prime Minister's comments about those who orchestrate violence on our streets, but does she agree that the fact that 45 per cent. of the people in my constituency and the neighbouring constituencies of Scotland Exchange and Toxteth are standing in dole queues, idle and unemployed, provides the breeding ground for the violence that we have seen?
The Prime Minister
I refer the hon. Gentleman to Lord Scarman 's report, which tried to identify some of the causes of riots. Riots and violence of any kind do not help to attract jobs. We are trying to do everything that we can on Merseyside. During the period under review the resources devoted to the urban programme grant went up considerably compared with those made available under Labour. The resources under the partnership scheme nearly doubled. The resources under Industry Act assistance—to get jobs—went up from £22 million to £32 million from the time of the Labour Government to our time.
Mr. Thornton
Will my right hon. Friend accept from me that there is more to the problems of Liverpool than is evidenced by Toxteth? Does she accept that an over-concentration on those problems is allowing people from the Liverpool Eight Defence Committee, supported by Marxist tendencies in Liverpool, to distort the situation and so give rise to a feeling in Liverpool that the Government are paying far too much attention to Toxteth and less than is needed to the other parts of Liverpool?
The Prime Minister
I fully take my hon. Friend's point. There are many successful firms and companies in Liverpool. Perhaps it would be a refreshing change if we tried to define the reasons for success and then tried to emulate them more widely in Liverpool and elsewhere.
Mr. Parry
When the Prime Minister eventually plucks up courage to visit Liverpool, will she visit the inner city areas? Is she aware that four of the inner city wards, according to official Government surveys, are among the most deprived in the United Kingdom, possibly in Western Europe? Are not the Government's monetary policies responsible for those appalling facts and figures?
The Prime Minister
As the hon. Gentleman knows, I visited Liverpool last year after the riots and appointed my right hon. Friend Michael Heseltinethe Secretary of State for the Environment to attempt to tackle the deep-seated problems of that city. Those problems have endured for a long time. It is a question not only of money but of leadership at all [column 721]levels and throughout society. Without that we cannot pull anywhere together. I hope that my right hon. Friend will succeed in getting leadership in the voluntary services, the churches and the local authorities so that we may carry out the necessary reconstruction in attitudes and in discipline in Liverpool.
Factory Closures
Q4. Mr. Campbell-Savours
asked the Prime Minister how many hon. Members she has seen on matters relating to factory closures since she last answered oral questions.
The Prime Minister
One, Sir.
Mr. Campbell-Savours
Is the Prime Minister aware that the factory closures in the Northern region, in my constituency in Workington and throughout the county of Cumbria, have brought about despair, anger and deep resentment against the Government? Does she understand that the industrial horizon in my constituency is now cluttered with the relics of a former industrial age? Does she also understand that the Government's policy of destabilising the British economy and destabilising people's personal lives, aggravated by the grossly unfair rent increases introduced by the Government, is undermining family life, because many millions of people cannot afford to pay those increases?
The Prime Minister
Jobs do not come from such rhetoric. They come from having competitive and efficient industries, producing well designed goods that the hon. Gentleman's constituents will buy. Unless and until we get that we shall not have increased genuine jobs in manufacturing industry.
[column 722]Mr. Porter
Will my right hon. Friend note that one of the most competitive industries on Merseyside, which is in some danger, is Associated Octel of Ellesmere Port, which manufactures petrol additive? Will she undertake that the Government will examine in detail the arguments advanced emotionally by the Campaign for Lead Free Air before the Government reach any decision about reducing the level of lead in petrol and making 2,000 of my constituents redundant?
Mrs. Renée Short
What about lives?
The Prime Minister
As my hon. Friend knows, the Government decided substantially to reduce lead in petrol. We decided to move to a low-lead, high octane petrol on the ground that we could get a better result from that rather than from having a different formula for petrol. That means that we shall have good results by 1985. I know the point that my hon. Friend is making. I shall certainly consider it.
Mr. Edwin Wainwright
Does the Prime Minister realise that, no matter what statements she makes, over 3 million people are still unemployed, including 700,000 young people, who are losing hope? Whatever the right hon. Lady is doing, she does not seem to have any commonsense approach to bringing down unemployment and giving hope to young people.
The Prime Minister
If, over the years, we had had less overmanning and pay that was more related to output, we should have far more jobs than we now have. Until we have efficient industry and increased pay related to increased output and good design we shall not have the jobs back, no matter how much the hon. Gentleman pleads. We have to earn our way in the world and not merely speak it.