PRIME MINISTER
Trades Union Congress
Q1. Mr. Cryer
asked the Prime Minister when last she met the leaders of the Trades Union Congress.
The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher)
I met the TUC general secretary with representatives of the European Trades Union Confederation on 25 November.
Mr. Cryer
Does the Prime Minister accept that the TUC will regard her support for Polish trade unionists fighting for democratic rights as wholly hypocritical when, in this country, she is using the imprisonment of the dole queue and the intervention of the courts to suppress organised workers? Are not the same double standards demonstrated when she asks trade unionists to accept low wages while at the same time appointing to the head of a Civil Service department Mr. Montague Alfred, at a wage of £50,000 per year? Does not that show that she does not give a damn about workers in the United Kingdom, Poland or anywhere else?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman must be hard put for a question if he finds any parallel whatever between conditions in this country and in Poland. Reports reach us of shootings, detention and great oppression in Poland. We vigorously denounce what is happening there and condemn it with all the strength and power that we can. There is no parallel whatever with anything that is happening in this country.
Mr. Archie Hamilton
When my right hon. Friend next meets the leaders of the TUC, will she discuss with them the possibility of a strike at Ford's? Will she emphasise to those involved that the short-term result can [column 866]only mean far more Ford cars being imported from Europe and that the long-term results must be a rundown in the manufacture of Ford cars in this country?
The Prime Minister
I wholly agree with what my hon. Friend has said. One very much hopes that the strike at Ford's will not take place. At present, there are many good jobs there. One hopes that they will be kept and that Ford will continue to prosper in this country, but it can do so only by increasing its productivity.
Mr. Foot
We shall of course fight the right hon. Lady's trade union legislation when she introduces it, but in view of the black shadow that Poland casts across the whole of this Christmas and the feelings that I believe are shared throughout the country on this, may I ask whether the right hon. Lady has any recent information on the subject? What is the position of Lech Walesa? What is the Government's information about the manner in which he is being held?
What is the Government's latest information on the scale of the attacks made on workers and people exercising their right to strike and protest in Poland? Can the right hon. Lady also tell us what breaches of the Helsinki agreement are involved in what is happening and what steps the Government can take to assist refugees who may come here, and in every other way to express the protest of the people of this country at what is happening in Poland and the brutal suppression that is taking place?
The Prime Minister
As I said in an earlier reply, we are all very deeply concerned at what is happening in Poland and we totally condemn the oppression by the present regime. With regard to refugees, a number of people from Poland are visiting this country and, of course, they will stay here for the time being. With regard to reports of shooting and oppression, we cannot confirm individual cases, but, in general, that is our information too. Of course, it seems that almost every undertaking of the Helsinki agreement is being flouted.
The right hon. Gentleman did not mention food, but I know that he would expect me to say a word or two about that. He will understand the difficulties involved, but we are all anxious to do everything that we possibly can to help the Polish people, without allowing food to fall into the hands of the military authorities. We have been in touch with the Red Cross authorities in Geneva. Most of our food has already gone to Poland. There is only a little left, mostly barley and a few tons of beef, but we shall make strenuous efforts to ensure that any future deliveries of food get to the people of Poland.
Mr. Foot
I am grateful to the Prime Minister for what she has said about the supply of food. I asked her earlier about the Government's latest information on Lech Walesa and how he is being held.
The Prime Minister
I am sorry that I did not reply to that question. I should have done so. We have no precise information over and above what has already been reported. It is not possible to get precise information. Lech Walesa is being detained, but beyond that I cannot give the right hon. Gentleman any direct information.
We all bitterly and deeply regret that action is being taken to extinguish the flame of freedom that had started in Poland——
Mr. J. Enoch Powell
Why?
[column 867]The Prime Minister
If the authorities believe that they can snuff out that flame they are making an error of historic proportions.
Mr. Eggar
When my right hon. Friend next meets trade union leaders will she point out to them that the only way that we can achieve the increases in capital expenditure that we all earnestly desire is if current expenditure is kept under control? Will she make it clear to those leaders that she will not permit public sector employees to take wage increases that imperil capital investment programmes?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is right in suggesting that we need to curb current expenditure if we are to get more capital expenditure, which most of us want. Many people would like more capital expenditure, but we often find that they nevertheless take out in wage increases the money that we need for that expenditure. That stops other people from getting more jobs.
Engagements
Q2. Mr. Sheerman
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 22 December.
The Prime Minister
This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall be having further meetings later today. This evening I hope to have an audience of her Majesty the Queen.
Mr. Sheerman
Will the Prime Minister take time today to explain to parents why, as was confirmed by a Minister in the early hours of this morning, the Government are running down British universities and thereby depriving 20,000 young men and women a year of the opportunity of a better life? Will she also explain what that action will contribute to the process of international competitiveness, which she holds so dear to her heart, or so she tells us?
The Prime Minister
The grant to the University Grants Committee is about £900 million. The UGC is responsible for allocating that money. As the hon. Gentleman knows, there was a massive expansion of university places during my time as Secretary of State for Education and Science and a massive expansion of the number of people in teaching. There has been a massive expansion of university places over previous years, though it is true that there are now certain economies in university expenditure.
Competitiveness does not necessarily depend on the number of people at universities. As the hon. Gentleman will know, there has been an increase in the allocation of money for engineering and scientific places.
Mr. David Steel
Is the Prime Minister aware that in her new year message, published yesterday, her assertion that 1982 has all the signs of being a year of great opportunity for Britain——
Mr. Skinner
Not for the right hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Steel
It is more likely for us than for the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner).
Mr. Skinner
The SDP is gobbling up the right hon. Gentleman.
[column 868]Mr. Steel
Is the Prime Minister aware that her assertion would have been more convincing if she had remembered that she said in her new year message for 1981: that
“there is real hope that a year from now things will be looking distinctly brighter.”
The Prime Minister
May I just give the right hon. Gentleman one or two figures to show that things really are very much better in some respects than at this time last year? For example, with regard to output per hour per person, which is an important measure of productivity, the figure for the third quarter of this year, on an indexed basis, is 115, which is an all-time record. The figure for output per person employed, another measure of productivity is 113.2, another all-time record. That is very good news.
Mr. Shore
What about unemployment and industrial output?
The Prime Minister
I am sorry that the right hon. Member for Stepney and Poplar (Mr. Shore) does not like increased productivity. Of course he does not. I do not intend to answer questions that the right hon. Gentleman asks from a sedentary position. The only way to get more business is for us to have greater productivity. The right hon. Gentleman knows that. Many people in industry are saying that they are in a better environment than for many years and they are well poised to take advantage of an increase in world trade when it comes.
Mr. David Atkinson
Returning to the subject of Poland, did my right hon. Friend hear the “World at One” programme, which referred to the Austrian request for this country to receive a fair share of the refugees, including handicapped people, recently arrived in Austria? Can my right hon. Friend make a statement on that request?
The Prime Minister
No. I have no statement to make on that. As I said in an earlier reply, a number of Polish people who were on a visit to this country are staying here for the time being until we see how the situation in Poland develops.
Mr. Alfred Morris
Will the Prime Minister reflect, between her engagements today, on the shocking increase in unemployment among employable disabled people? Is she aware that it is now reported to be as high as 80 per cent. in some parts of the United Kingdom? Will the right hon. Lady also reflect on the hardship caused for 650,000 chronically sick and disabled people and their families by the Government's cut in invalidity benefit during this International Year of Disabled People? Bearing in mind the resolution approved by the House on 3 July, what action is the Prime Minister taking to reverse that and other cuts in the living standards of disabled people?
The Prime Minister
I believe that I am right in saying that the invalidity pension had added to it a temporary allowance that brought it back up to what it would otherwise have been——
Mr. Alfred Morris
No, that is not so.
The Prime Minister
I am sorry if that is not specifically correct. I had the figures with me last week. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will put down a specific question, or perhaps he should have asked Norman Fowlerthe Secretary of State for Social Services when he was answering [column 869]questions earlier. There is an extra amount which, I thought, brought up the invalidity pension to the level that it would otherwise have been.
I am afraid that at a time of considerable unemployment, although the general overall figures are slightly down, it is very difficult to get extra places for disabled people, but those who are in work are doing a splendid job.
Later—
Mr. Alfred Morris
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Many people inside and outside the House may have been seriously misled by the Prime Minister's reply to me——
Mr. Speaker
Order. We cannot deal with a Minister's reply—that of the Prime Minister or of any other Minister—on a point of order.
Q3. Mr. Alan Clark
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 22 December.
The Prime Minister
I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Clark
In considering what action to take about Poland, will my right hon. Friend ensure that nothing is done to add to the tribulations of the Polish people, who are more deserving of sympathy than punishment? Further, will she devote her personal prestige to bringing about a response from the free nations of Europe that is positive, resolute and, in contrast to what happened over Afghanistan, united?
The Prime Minister
This is one of the problems that we have in deciding what to do about withholding supplies from the Polish people. We wish to ease the lot of the Polish people. We must ensure that any food that is sent reaches them. Decisions will have to be made about the grant that we were giving the Ursus tractor factory. Another £30 million was due to go next year, and in concert with our allies in Europe we shall have to decide whether to send that amount. We shall also have to decide with our allies about the possibility of rescheduling debts. At the moment we are having consultations. There is a fresh round of consultation with our European colleagues and NATO Allies, and NATO ambassadors are meeting tomorrow.
[column 870]Dr. Owen
Is the Prime Minister aware that not everyone supports her denunciation of what is happening in Poland?
Mr. Canavan
Look at the time.
Mr. Speaker
Order. May I inform the House that we were one minute late in reaching Prime Minister's questions.
Dr. Owen
The real anxiety in the country is over what action is to be taken. It appears that again, as in the case of Afghanistan, the West is not prepared to cross the real threshold, which is a readiness to threaten economic sanctions. Are we really to believe that over the next few weeks we shall continue to fund the military Government in Poland, while we see what is happening in that country? [Interruption.] Are we to continue to have free and open trading with Poland while—[Interruption]—we see what is happening on the television news?
Mr. Speaker
Order. It is beyond reason for hon. Members to shout alongside a right hon. Member who is trying to address the House. All right hon. and hon. Members are entitled to be heard when they are called.
Dr. Owen
The country hears Labour Members every day.
Mr. Canavan
The right hon. Gentleman should tell us about his support for the Shah.
Dr. Owen
The Prime Minister should recognise that there is a real feeling in the country that denunciation is not enough and that we should be prepared, along with other European countries, to pay a fair price.
The Prime Minister
I think that I have already fairly answered a number of the right hon. Gentleman's questions. We shall of course need to be certain that any aid will not strengthen the forces of oppression. Many of us feel that it would not necessarily help the Polish people to cut off all food supplies this side of Christmas. It would be better to ensure that the supplies reach the people themselves. As I said, we are consulting our allies about, whether the debt should be rescheduled and what should happen about the grant that we had previously intended to give to the Ursus tractor factory. We are well aware of these matters, but they are not nearly as easy to deal with as the right hon. Gentleman suggests.