TV Interview for BBC1 Nationwide (On the Spot)

Sue Lawley

Nationwide tonight, the Prime Minister is ON THE SPOT. Mrs. Thatcher has joined us in our London studio to answer some of the questions which viewers want to put to her. We've had thousands of letters and ‘phone calls from people who'd like to question the Prime Minister on her policies and on the style of leadership she's displayed over the past two years. There are worries about the rise in unemployment, there is two and a half million people out of work at the moment; and there's concern about inflation, coming down but still in double figures. Many of you are clearly worried about violence on the streets and the continuing problem of Northern Ireland. And we've had questions about the effect of some of the Government's cuts in public spending, especially in education, a field where, of course, Mr. Thatcher first made her name as a Cabinet Minister in Mr. Heath's Government.

Well, we've only got 35 minutes and many people all over the country are wanting to put their questions to the Prime Minister, so let's begin. Prime Minister, as you might have expected the bulk of questions we received were about unemployment so I would like to turn first to Mr. Kenneth Brier who's in our Leeds studio. He's a builder, he's been unemployed on and off for three years now. Mr. Brier would you like to put your question? I do apologise Mrs. Thatcher, we're not quite hearing Mr. Brier's question but I can paraphrase it for him, if you wouldn't mind, and that is that he wants to say you've said many times that you know what it's like to be unemployed but do you, or your ministers, really appreciate the indignity of signing on and standing in the dole queue?

Rt. Hon. Margaret Thatcher MP

Mr. Brier I'm sorry we couldn't hear you in the studio. Unemployment is the most difficult problem that I face. It is very high, it is unacceptably high and I fully understand the indignity that you mention of people who want to work and can't get a job. You wanted to ask a supplementary question.

Sue Lawley

Mr. Brier, can we now hear you? Can you speak?

Kenneth Brier

The question I did want to ask, you say that it's a problem you face - it isn't you who's facing the problem, it's the unemployed people that's facing the problem. You don't seem to be doing bad out of it at all to me.

Mrs. Thatcher

If I could just create jobs out of thin air then I would do so, but I can't. Can I just explain for a moment? I can't. You know how we get lasting jobs, by producing either goods or services that other people will buy and there's no other way, no other way to do it at all. Now you would say all right, let's put up Government spending. I have to tell you that Government spending this year is actually slightly higher than it was last year and in order to meet that cost I have to go and get it from taxation and, as you know, we had to put up taxes. [end p1]

So that way doesn't lie extra jobs and we do have to go back to the old way of producing goods or services at a price, and at a delivery date, that people are prepared to buy. When I went trying to sell things in the Gulf and elsewhere they said, yes, we'd like to buy more British, we trust the British, we've been friends with them for a long time but your prices are too high and your delivery goods ... your delivery times too long. And I said, look, we're doing better, give us a chance.

Sue Lawley

Mr. Brier, can I ask you, what effect has your being out of work had on you and your family in the community in which you live?

Brier

Well I have... have been fairly fortunate, I've been getting work from time to time but you keep saying that it's going to improve. What is the acceptable level that you're going to, that we're going to have to put up with, you know, because …

Mrs. Thatcher

I wouldn't say there's an acceptable level...

Brier

Can I just say one thing Prime Minister please...?

Mrs. Thatcher

Of course.

Brier

In 1979 you had all the answers, you told us that Labour wasn't working and then you told us that you knew all the answers at that time and that's when we had a million, or just over a million, unemployed. Now you've doubled it and you're still telling us that it's unacceptable now, now that we've got to accept it, it's unavoidable rather, so what were acceptable, or unacceptable, in 1979 you've doubled it and now you're saying it's unavoidable. But you seemed to have the answers in 1979.

Mrs. Thatcher

I wouldn't say that there's an acceptable level of unemployment. May I make that quite clear. When I came in 1979, let me put it this way, the world price of oil, which OPEC fixed, was eleven dollars a barrel, a lot less than it is now. It went up and up and up and today it's thirty six dollars a barrel...

Brier

And will go down now.

Mrs. Thatcher

One moment, it's not going down unfortunately, let's just hope that it won't go up any more. That's an enormous increase in two years. Now our fault. Do you know what's happened? Because we have to spend so much more on the same amount of oil we have less to spend on other goods and services and that's happened the world over and it has hit some people hard. Now we're having to ride this storm and we'll come through it but it does mean that we have to look after all our other costs and keep them as low as we possibly can.

Sue Lawley

Can I try and widen the issue a little by bringing in Dr. Elizabeth Calder who's in our Plymouth studio. She is a doctor and she, I think Mrs. Thatcher, wants to question the wisdom of your policy over unemployment. Dr. Calder. [end p2]

Dr. Elizabeth Calder

Mrs. Thatcher, can you explain to two and a half million people why their jobs should be considered a fair exchange for lowering the rate of inflation?

Mrs. Thatcher

Well, that just isn't true at all I'm afraid. The question really is on the wrong premise. The countries which here the lowest rate of inflation have the lowest rate of unemployment. Germany, for example, got her inflation down years and years ago. Her inflation now is about 5.6%. Her unemployment is lower than ours. They looked after costs years and years ago. They looked after productivity and what happened is they've got the business and they've got the jobs that we ought to have. We've got to go the same route if we're going to get and keep the jobs. If we're going to be able to compete with Japan and Germany we have to get our inflation down and we have to keep it down so that we can compete with them when it comes to selling goods overseas.

Sue Lawley

Dr. Calder, would you like to come back on that briefly?

Dr. Calder

Yes, I can understand that's what happens in other countries. The reason I ask this question is that so frequently in the media the monthly unemployment figures are published and recently they have been rising as we all know and very shortly after but the rate of inflation is coming almost to say one is the price for the other. I understand that it's your responsibility to keep the economy of the nation healthy but how can somebody in my position encourage, for example, a man of 45 who lost his job yesterday, and who may never work again, that his immediate sacrifice will do him some good in the remainder of his working life?

Mrs. Thatcher

Some people, I entirely agree, a lot, are out of work through no fault of their own but equally I am not responsible for some things which go on. I am not responsible when people have a jolly good job and go on strike. I know then what happens. Britain gets a bad reputation for her goods. I'm not responsible when the chairman of one of the big motor companies points out that one Japanese produces about thirty cars a year compared with one car worker in the Continent of Europe who produces fifteen compared with one car worker in Britain who produces only seven, and we've had a great deal of overmanning and certainly we have to get rid of a lot of that overmanning and people say it isn't fair. But unless we got rid of it we couldn't begin to compete and I can't emphasise too often that if we go on paying ourselves more and more for producing the same amount of work we shall not get the overseas orders and therefore we shall not get the jobs.

Sue Lawley

A lot of people, Mrs. Thatcher, wrote in making a constructive suggestion. For instance, Robert Welsh from Blackpool says why don't you bring down the retirement age from 65 to 55? This would release two million jobs immediately. [end p3]

Mrs. Thatcher

You can't always in fact, you can't always put young people into the same jobs as older people have filled. And also you know it would add to costs enormously. Supposing I bring it down from 65 to 55 - that means that we've got to find retirement pensions for people for an extra ten years of their life. That's going to be an enormous burden on people of working age. We do have what's called a job release scheme which means that if a person say of 64 retires and his job is taken by a person off the unemployment register then we do, indeed, give him an allowance and a younger person's got a job. But the cost of all the people of working age having to pay on pensions, not only for the eight million pensioners already, but for another two million, just would be impossible. Look at the overheads on industry and that would make us less and less competitive. No, there's only one way through; we have to be as competitive and as good as the Germans, as the Japanese, and we must learn to compete, and we are doing it. Gradually we're doing it and that's why the prospects are brighter and why there is some hope for other people to get jobs in the future.

Sue Lawley

Let's move on to the question of prices and let me bring in Mr. Raymond Bowers in Manchester. He's a teacher, he's married with two children and Mr. Bowers, would you like to put your question?

Mrs. Thatcher

Mr. Bowers.

Raymond Bowers

Good Evening, Mrs. Thatcher...

Mrs. Thatcher

Hello, Mr. Bowers.

Bowers

Fuel prices have risen steadily over the last 12 months. Gas prices went up by 15% and electricity by 30%. Now you promised to keep inflation down, now how are you going to control these prices?

Mrs. Thatcher

Yes, you're quite right Mr. Bowers. One of the problems that worries me are nationalised industry prices. I think you're probably referring to domestic prices for gas and I would just like you know two things. First, the gas board doesn't make profit from domestic prices of gas. The profit actually comes from industrial prices which I'm the first to admit are too high for industry. But even now they don't make a profit from the domestic prices of gas and what they face is this. Their old supplies come from the basins in the North Sea discovered years ago and they pay about tuppence or threepence a therm for that. That's running out and they're having to replace it with newly discovered gas much more expensive, 16, 17, 18 pence a therm. For the moment they're getting a mix. Even so there are quite a lot of people on electricity who would like to use gas because it's lower priced. But it is a mixture of a very much higher price than the lower and gradually the mix is getting more of the higher price and less of the lower. On electricity prices - you know that a half the cost of electricity is the fuel price. We have kept most of our electricity. 70% as a matter of fact, generated from coal and there's not the slightest shadow of doubt that our coal is high priced and even at the prices you've been paying for electricity, and I know what they are, I know very much so, even then there still had to be some help from the tax payer to electricity industries last year, quite a bit. [end p4]

Sue Lawley

Mr. Bowers, what percentage pay increase did you get as a teacher this year?

Bowers

Well as a teacher, Mrs. Thatcher, we got 7½% as you no doubt know. My pay is controlled - why isn't the pay of the power workers controlled as well?

Mrs. Thatcher

Your pay you negotiate through Burnham and, in fact, as you know, we honoured the Clegg Report before this year and the Clegg Report gave very considerable increases. Indeed, as you remember, it actually overcalculated and we paid. Indeed, we honoured all the Clegg recommendations and this year we have to find the money, all of us, you and me, from the private sector, that is from industry and commerce. And if we put a too heavy a burden on them they won't be able to sell the goods. Why can I not control the price of electricity exactly? They negotiate with the Central Electricity Generating Board - I can only say this to you, they are a monopoly and I do beg them to realise just exactly what you've said. Let me say this to workers in electricity and coal. If they put up…take out so much for themselves, even at a time of unemployment, if they put up the price of coal they put up the price of electricity to such heights they're an enormous burden on industry, then they are in fact putting other people out of jobs. They are a monopoly, they do have monopoly powers. Let me beg and plead with them to use those wisely and to realise if they put up prices so much because they take so much else out they're putting other people out of jobs. That's how they can help to cure unemployment.

Sue Lawley

Can I call in now Mr. Bill Court who's in our Norwich studio. He's in the boat building business, Mrs. Thatcher. Mr. Court, your question.

Mrs. Thatcher

Mr. Court, good evening.

Bill Court

Good Evening, Prime Minister. Prime Minister as a result of your Government's policy over the last 18 months British industry has been forced to take some pretty harsh medicine. What I would like to know is when does the turn of Government Services come?

Sue Lawley

… medicine to the private sector, not to the public sector.

Mrs. Thatcher

I think you are meaning that although we've reduced the number of civil servants we haven't reduced them quite enough and, in fact, that you had to be a lot, lot more economical in much of the private sector than you think we have been in the public sector. You're quite right, that is indeed the criticism that we often meet. We have to negotiate in the public sector, and right now I'm saying to civil servants 7% extra is all you can have and that's a lot more than many small businesses can afford to pay. But I'm trying to fight that battle and I'm trying to hold it to 7%. You heard what a teacher said just a moment or two ago. He's been on 7%. We are trying to do everything possible. Certainly when it comes to, and this is the crux of the matter, big nationalised industries with monopoly powers they can hold the nation to ransom. I urge them not to do so because what they're doing is hitting small business, private sector business; they're hitting fellow workers in trade unions, fellow professional people and I do urge them to consider what... the effect that they can have on people such as yourself. [end p5]

Lawley

Mr. Court.

Court

Thank you Prime Minister. I would also like to ask another question. Your Party committed itself to reduce public borrowing fairly substantially prior to the last election and your efforts to date have been a signal failure in my opinion. Is this failure a tacit admission that Whitehall is uncontrollable?

Mrs. Thatcher

Let me just take it step by step. If we want to borrow less, and we have cut borrowing down, we can either spend less and you know the battles which I've been fighting over that, I have been trying to spend less, trying to cut out waste, trying to get good value for money, now that…if we were to go and spend even less now it would mean making bigger cuts on education, on health, on pensions. I am committed on pensions to keep them abreast of inflation. We've done that. On health we've actually got some more doctors and nurses than we have. On other things we have in fact cut down on education, there are nearly a million less pupils over four years to have been able to cut on that. I think we've done almost as much as we can on cutting spending so, having got that spending then we have to meet it either from taxation or borrowing. I hope now that we've got the balance about right. Certainly I would like to put borrowing down more so we could put interest rates down more. But you know I am fired at from two sides. First on people who have to meet the money, who have to raise the money to meet the expenditure. And then I am fired at from others who say we are not spending enough.

I think under all the circumstances we've tried to get the balance right, fair to the pensioner, fair to the health service, fair to the people who are out of work and a reasonable deal for the taxpayer with some incentives. But no-one is keener than I am to get public spending down so there's more money and more savings to go into business which are the real creators of wealth.

Lawley

Can we turn now Prime Minister to Northern Ireland? We've had a lot of questions on the subject but our questioner from Ulster withdrew from this programme this afternoon because he felt that talking to you about the hunger strikers would put him, and indeed his family, in danger. So we've agreed to ask his question for him and this was it. He said why will you not negotiate now with the remaining hunger strikers to save furthers loss of life in Ireland and possibly in Great Britain too?

Mrs. Thatcher

I understand the tragedy of Northern Ireland. It is a tragedy in which there are few people who use the gun, murder, explosives, violence to intimidate the civilian population into surrender when they couldn't persuade the people to do it through the ballot box. Those people in the Maze Prison are convicted criminals. The one who died the other day was a convicted murderer. People say we've been inflexible. We haven't. Two years ago we had the European Commission of Human Rights in the Maze Prison. The Maze Prison is one of [end p6] the most modern that we have. They made recommendations that we should make about nine improvements. We implemented them all, every single one.

Before the hunger strike started, we did even more than that. We said to them all right we'll issue civilian clothing, issued by the Prison Governor, for you to wear civilian clothing. We've done all that. We've done everything we could and we've got the most modern, just about liberal conditions, of almost any prison in Europe.

Lawley

But I think our ...

Mrs. Thatcher

Now they are saying we want even more and what their demands amount to is to be treated not as convicted criminals in prison but to be treated as prisoners of war. They are not, they are convicted criminals.

Lawley

But our questioner, Mrs. Thatcher, seemed to feel that the compromise lay in your hands, that if in fact you could just allow them to associate freely, allow them to wear their own clothes, which is far from recognising them in any political status, that that would solve the problem and that would perhaps bring these hunger strikes to an end.

Mrs. Thatcher

But that is not what they've said. Before Sands died he said I want all five demands which are tantamount to being political prisoners, freedom of association is of course tantamount to being treated as a political prisoner, as a prisoner of war. It's not what they have said they want. They said all five demands, Sands said it, Hughes' brother said it, they've issued statements, all five demands. Their method of going about it now…they say one hunger strike will get one step. Then another hunger strike then we'll get another step. These people are convicted criminals. To treat them as prisoners of war or give them special political status is to give them a licence to kill and I must say all my sympathies go to the victims and all my anger goes to the way in which our soldiers and police are treated out there by people of the kind who are in the Maze Prison who do not hesitate to use the gun and the bomb to main and kill to get their way. We cannot go that way. We have to beat them.

Lawley

Can I bring in Mrs. Fox in our Southampton studio who I think has a broader answer to the problems of Northern Ireland? Mrs. Fox.

Yvonne Fox

In view of the failure of successive British Governments to find a solution to the Irish problems, isn't it time the whole question was handed over to the care of the United Nations? If the British Government did this it would show that it was genuinely interested in a just peace.

Mrs. Thatcher

Well may I say that the United Nations doesn't seem to have been able to find a solution to Cyprus or to Lebanon or to the Middle Eastern situation or to Namibia. So I don't think handing over to the United Nations would do any good. Moreover, these people are part of the United Kingdom. They want to continue to be part [end p7] of the United Kingdom and just by handing over to another body doesn't produce solutions. The trouble is you've got two communities in Northern Ireland. Their objectives are fundamentally different. You've got a minority community many of whom owe allegiance in their eyes to the Republic of Ireland. And you've got the great majority who want to stay with the United Kingdom. Those two things are very difficult to reconcile. Most of us would have thought Mrs. Fox that after all they've been through, seen their children go through, that their living in the same community would have come together and said enough, let's learn to live together. Unfortunately they haven't.

But don't think there's an easy solution to pull out of the hat. The majority wish to stay with the United Kingdom. The minority wish to be with the Republic of Ireland. And there are few among the minority, not a lot, who will turn to the gun and the bomb to achieve their objective. We shall just have to go on trying. We must beat the bomb and the gun. We must protect the law-abiding citizen wherever they are in the United Kingdom always.

Lawley

Turning now Prime Minister to law and order in general can I ask Neil Salt of Camberley in Surrey for his question? Mr. Salt.

Neil Salt

Yes, good evening, Mrs. Thatcher.

Mrs. Thatcher

Good evening, Mr. Salt.

Salt

What steps do you think should be taken to try to prevent the Brixton riots from happening all over again?

Mrs. Thatcher

They were a tragedy weren't they?

Salt

They were.

Mrs. Thatcher

Indeed a tragedy. It was a terrible evening. Dreadful as we saw those scenes on television and saw how marvellous our police were. I think we've done everything we can by law and there's a great deal of money been made available through one scheme or another to try to stop this kind of thing happening. In the end you know it is personal contact and personal attitudes. We shan't do it by pontificating about race relations. We shall only do it by trying to cure some of the things, and I hope Lord Scarman will find out what's given rise to these problems. But it is personal contact, it is personal effort. No more legislation will do the job. There are problems I know with unemployment but I don't believe in that area that that was the main cause of these riots.

Lawley

Mr. Salt, what steps do you think should be taken?

Salt

Well I've got three particular points I'd like to raise.

Mrs. Thatcher

Well let's have them. You might have a solution we haven't thought of. [end p8]

Salt

Well I doubt it, but I'll try. The first step I've got is I think that the police should try to employ more black people, particularly in the London area. The second point refers to I think that young and relatively inexperienced policemen should not be expected to have to patrol such sensitive areas as Brixton in the future. And finally I'd like to raise the point about some sort of a voluntary community service scheme which could be set up all round the country in order to enable young people both black and white who have just left school and would perhaps be otherwise unemployed to do work that would be both beneficial for the community and themselves and would get them out doing some work during the day so that they are not sitting at home wondering what they can do, being unemployed, getting together in groups and causing rioting in the end which is perhaps what happened at Brixton.

Lawley

Can I just ask you for your general reaction to it Mrs. Thatcher?

Mrs. Thatcher

Well couldn't I just have a word about them because he has been so constructive. First, we do welcome, the police force would welcome, more coloured policemen in the force. They are recruited not according to whether they are black or white, whether they come up to certain standards and whether more people from the Asian and West Indian communities would apply. They'd be welcomed. And when we had difficulties that night some of them who were in the Special Police came out and did all they could to help. So that's a question of please will they apply and if they come up to standard there's no colour bar. Secondly, you said about young policemen not patrolling. You know it always is remarkable to me that when you look at some of our army in Northern Ireland some of them are very young and they have to do very difficult duties. And some of the young are very good and I think if they patrol in groups then I think they have to learn and I think they do a superb job and they are trained very well.

With regard to your third point, there are quite a lot of community schemes and I wholly agree with you it's far better if young people have something to do and if there aren't jobs for them all at least let's try to get them doing something. Community enterprise schemes or training and we are trying to do more on what is called the Youth Opportunities Programme and I think you've made a very interesting suggestion because it's far better for them to be together discussing something constructive, doing more training, even staying at school or going into Colleges of Further Education to do something and I think you are approaching it, if I might say so, in just the right spirit which will enable us to solve it.

Lawley

Well thank you for that Mr. Salt. Let's in fact…

Mrs. Thatcher

Thank you very much indeed.

Lawley

Can we move on and talk about education because we have Mrs. Sheila Kay from Oxfordshire who is fact Vice-Chairman of her local Conservative Association, Prime Minister, and a former Governor of two schools. She's in our Birmingham studio and I think she would support you on many things, BUT… [end p9]

Mrs. Thatcher

Well let's hear the “BUT”. Hello, Mrs. Kay.

Sheila Kay

Hello, Mrs. Thatcher.

Mrs. Thatcher

There's always a “BUT” in my life.

Kay

Well Mrs. Thatcher, I am very worried about education because in view of the simply Draconian cuts that have been made lately which have really gone right across the board from nursery to university and have hit certainly rural areas particularly very hard, don't you feel now that the time has come to call a halt to cutting education, to exempt that if you like? I know we've got to make economies but don't you think that we could call a halt in that line?

Mrs. Thatcher

Can we have a look at schools Mrs. Kay, because the numbers of pupils in schools are going down by one-million from 1979 to 1983? That's just the way for the numbers of children are. One-million down and of course we would not expect to pay as much for one-million pupils less as we did for the more and if we do we take it from elsewhere. But in fact if you look at the amount spent per pupil and I did just check it before I came because I used to do these sums when I was at Education, we are still spending as much - actually this is slightly more per pupil, even taking inflation into account - than we were last year. So for a primary school pupil we are spending something like £430 for each primary school pupil, for a secondary school over £600 and for sixth-formers about £1,000. So per pupil the expenditure is being kept up in fact slightly increased. I know there are some problems because we are having to run more schools than we would have done had we started with fewer pupils. But the amount spent on each pupil is still the same, in fact slightly increased.

On universities, I have to decide where we cut. It isn't easy to cut anywhere and I happen to be very keen on nursery education myself, but we did think that universities could take a small cut. You know our universities have the best proportion of professors to students of any universities in the world. It's something like ten students to one teacher in universities. And we've thought you know that there was room for a little economy there, thought that there was room for reducing the number of courses offered at each and every university, perhaps for concentrating more on those that are really needed. It's not a nice job but the alternative is higher taxation, higher borrowing and I think we've got something that's reasonable now.

Lawley

Well Mrs. Thatcher we have in fact a customer's complaint for you and it comes in the form of Joanne Small who is twelve years old and she is from Tring. Joanne, what's the problem?

Mrs. Thatcher

Hello, Joanne.

Joanne Small

I'd like to ask why the Prime Minister will not give more money to schools. All my class had lines because we were talking. The reason we were talking however was because my friends and I [end p10] shared one book between three of us and so we had to talk to ask if we could see the book. After all our education is going to affect the future of our country.

Mrs. Thatcher

Yes of course it is. Did you hear what I said to Mrs. Kay, Joanne? I was trying to explain that the amount that we spend on each pupil even taking inflation into account is still the same, indeed slightly more this year, than last. So I am not responsible for cutting the amount spent on your education whether you are in primary or secondary school and you will be in secondary school now, how they decide to spend that is up to your local authority. The money is there, they decide how much they spend on teachers, how much is spent on books, how much they spend on maintenance, how much they spend on heating, how much they spend on playing fields. And I will be quite frank with you and say that I think too many of them have taking the cuts to books and there have been complaints and there have been complaints from those who produce school books…

Lawley

Couldn't you give a little more guidance to them Mrs. Thatcher?

Mrs. Thatcher

…But what they do with the amount, well what they do with the amount is a matter for them. Actually we did give guidance. When we were calculating the sums that the taxpayer gives to the local authorities, the tax…the Rate Support Grant, we did in fact put in 2% extra for expenditure on books and equipment. But what we, the guidance we give isn't necessarily followed and the fact is sometimes I'm afraid they have found it easier to cut books and we are very concerned about it because they can't go on just existing on their store of books. There'll be new books and new things but we did give just that guidance and actually advised that 2% more be spent on books and equipment. But in some cases it wasn't followed. And Joanne's right, it's not fair on her.

Lawley

Especially if she gets lines for it too.

Mrs. Thatcher

Especially if she gets lines for it.

Lawley

For our final questionner let's turn to you personally Mrs. Thatcher and your style of leadership. Mrs. Audrey Kelley in our Bristol studio has a question.

Audrey Kelley

Many people voted you into office Mrs. Thatcher in the belief that a woman would have a humanising effect upon the process of government. So how do you react on a purely personal level to the suffering and the hardship that is doubtless being caused in so many families at the moment and is your conscience at all troubled by your relentless adherence to political theory at the expense of people?

Mrs. Thatcher

Do you know I wouldn't have to have one single economic or political theory to do what I want to do. If I could get back to some of things on which I was brought up, mainly that you don't take out more pay without putting in more work. If we were to do that [end p11] our costs would be more competitive. That you pay your way. That you don't try to spend more than you've got. That you try to have honest money. That's what I am trying to do in government. I am saying I am not going to print it because I know that if I print money it undermines the value of every pound in circulation. That if we could get good labour relations and good co-operation between management and men. That if people knew that their future lay in co-operating with their company and in really having the very best possible relations with management to get goods out to the consumer.

If we could do all of that. If we could say that we produced goods the consumer will buy I wouldn't need to have any economic theory. And the reason we are in difficulty is this. Other people in other countries are doing just that and we are not. I don't find any pleasure in having to deal with a situation in which over the last five years this country has paid itself 100% more for producing 2% less. But that's what I am faced with.

Yes I do feel concerned about it. I feel deeply concerned when I have people who want jobs and can't get them. But I know that I can't conjure them out of thin air and that I do rely on co-operation to enable them to get back into production to compete with the workers in Germany, France, the United States, Japan and so on. I do feel deeply about it. Of course I do. I wouldn't be human if we didn't.

Lawley

Mrs. Thatcher, Mrs. Kelley and all our questionners thank you very much indeed. I'm afraid that that's all we have time for tonight so I'd like to thank all those viewers who took part in this “ON THE SPOT” and also the thousands more who wrote and phoned in with their questions. Hope you will get a chance another time. In the meantime, Prime Minister thank you for being our guest this evening.

Mrs. Thatcher

Thank you very much.

Lawley

Goodnight.