TV Interview for BBC New Life (Asian community programme)

Question

Prime Minister, going by the press reports of your visit to India, one gathers the impression that both you and the Prime Minister of India while gaining the appreciation of each other's point of view, have agreed to disagree. But have there been any positive achievements as a result of your visit to India?

Prime Minister

I would not put it that way, that we agreed to disagree. We had very long talks, and I was very glad to have the chance of talking tete-a-tete with Mrs. Gandhi for, I think, about three hours in all.

Of course, in some respects, we see things from a slightly different viewpoint, because we are differently situated geographically, and Mrs. Gandhi has totally different [end p1] problems from us. You know, her problems are that her population is increasing by 15 million every year. It is an enormous amount, but I thought the remarkable thing was the degree of agreement - not the degree of disagreement.

Question

What were the areas of agreement, Prime Minister?

Prime Minister

Let me put it this way: India spends a good deal on defence; so do we. But we both do it hoping very much that we would never have to use those things, because we both agree that we need a time of peace and stability in order to develop our economies and the rest of the world economy. So we agree that peace comes from strength; it does not come from weakness.

We agree that we have to consult regularly on matters which affect us all, because foreign affairs are not just some things that happen a long way overseas; they are things that affect the lives of our communities everywhere. So, yes, we do have to consult on things like the Middle East; we do have to consult on East-West relations; on Afghanistan; on Namibia. All of these matters we discussed and discussed openly. [end p2]

Question

Did you sign any agreements? We understand you signed several agreements with India. What areas were covered in those agreements?

Prime Minister

We did sign several. I think perhaps the most important in a way was the double taxation agreement, because as you know, a lot of people have businesses in both countries - in India or in this country - or we have partnerships in India and Indian companies have partnerships here. And so, we have negotiated a double taxation agreement, which means that people will not pay tax in both countries, but be able to set off tax paid in one country against tax paid in another. We signed that one.

We signed other agreements about machinery to develop coal mines. You know we are particularly good at it, and India has a lot of coal that she wishes to develop. We signed agreements about research and technology. India, as you know, has wonderful research. I went to one of the establishments - the atomic research establishment - I had previously been to an agricultural research establishment. Again, we can cooperate, and we signed an agreement about that. [end p3]

We signed an agreement about collaboration in space matters, and that is also extremely important.

Question

Prime Minister, let us come to the nitty gritty of the problems that ethnic minorities seem to have, for instance, the Nationality Bill. Now, the Government has used the guillotine to curb the debate on the Nationality Bill. It is a very important constitutional matter; why this hurry?

Prime Minister

I would not call it that amount of hurry. There has been a fantastic amount of discussion already on the Nationality Bill. Indeed, I think Mr. Whitelaw pointed out that it had made progress so far only at the rate of five lines an hour. That is not a shortage of discussion, and I think someone else pointed out that the main lines of it - the main parts of it - have already been discussed.

Every country, you know, must keep the right to itself to decide to whom it shall grant its own citizenship. Every other country does. Because of our history, we have not previously looked at it like that. We have to look at it like that now and we wish our citizenship now to carry with [end p4] it the right to live here in the United Kingdom. So we really are doing just exactly what every other country has been doing for a very very long time. But it is not being done on racial grounds at all; it is being done - British citizenship is being granted to those who have a close and continuing connection with this country, and many many people from different ethnic groups who have been here and who are permanently settled here, will, of course, have already arsquouired British citizenship and their status will not be altered.

Question

Prime Minister, there are three types of citizenship and it affects adversely the coloured people. Therefore, one could say that perhaps it is racially motivated.

Prime Minister

No, it does not affect people here, say from India who have been accepted for permanent settlement here, and they, for the greater part, are already British citizens, and if they are not, they have an extended time in which to apply for British citizenship because we are deciding not on a racial basis - as far as people already here are concerned - but your close and continuing linke with this country [end p5] I mean, here are half a million people here from the Indian sub-continent; most of those have already arsquouired British citizenship and, of course, that will continue, and it carries with it the right to live here.

Question

And also the responsibility - nobody could disagree with you.

Prime Minister, in India, you are reported to have said, and I quote: “Those Indian citizens” - of course, you were addressing at that time Indians, but you meant the people from the sub-continent - “Indian citizens who have taken up British citizenship and who are now British citizens, will continue to be as much British citizens as I am.” Yes, Prime Minister, some members of your Conservative Party have been talking about repatriation, voluntarily-induced repatriation, and have put a price tag of £4,000 per head. What is your position on repatriation?

Prime Minister

British citizenship, once having been granted, cannot be taken away. Those who have got British citizenship are entitled to as much as I am. They can transmit the rights of British citizenship, even though they got it by grant - and [end p6] I have it by birth - they can transmit it as I can. So let there be no doubt about that.

If people themselves wish to return to India or else-where, that is a matter for them, if they wish to go. No-one is saying to them: “Go!” They are British citizens here. They have title to as many things by virtue of British citizenship as I have; as many rights, as many responsibilities; I hope as many opportunities.

Question

British is a multi-racial, multi-cultural society. It is a reality; it is a fact of life. Our viewers would like to know about your commitment to that multi-cultural society.

Prime Minister

I hope I have already made it clear. We have the same rights, if we are British citizens, the same rights, the same responsibilities. We are trying to get just exactly the same opportunities. That is what living in a country and being a citizen of it means. The same rights, the same responsibilities, the same opportunities. Once we have got that, it is up to people to take advantage of those opportunities and, as you know, so many many of them do and do extremely well here. [end p7]

Question

You made amendments in the Nationality Bill - you extended the time to arsquouire citizenship from two years to five years, and people have appreciated that, Prime Minister, and you are within your right to say to us: “I give you five years. Decide! And five years is a long time to decide whether you belong to this country or not and if you cannot make up your minds, then do not come to me!” People would like to hear that sort of thing from you, and you are quite capable of saying bluntly to them so that they know where they stand.

Prime Minister

But we have given plenty of time and I think that you have, in fact, put it very well.

Question

What about those people who do not become citizens, and there is a certain amount of ambiguity there, that they still have civic rights, voting rights, job opportunities. Do you think that that will remain or that will be altered?

Prime Minister

If people do not become citizens, then later, if they stayed here and were resident here, they would have to rely on applying under the ordinary law of naturalisation, which is the [end p8] law which applies to any people who reside here who are not in fact British citizens.

Question

Prime Minister, Conservatives have reason to be proud when in the past Government, of which you were a very important member, when Idi Amin threw out British passport-holders, Asians from Uganda, your country and your Government allowed 28,000 East African Asians to come and settle down in this country, and they have become part of the society, without creating any problem for the Exchequer or the society.

Now, there are some East African Asians who are living in India, and there is a quota of 5,000 vouchers, and it has not been taken up - perhaps 500 in India, 1500 or 1600 in East African countries. What is the problem if those vouchers are switched to India and expedite their coming over?

Prime Minister

From time to time, we do review the numbers coming in from different countries, but the quota given to each country has never been revealed. But at the moment, I must put this point to you. We have two and a half million unemployed here, and rising. I do not think it is the time to increase the numbers of people coming in. I do [end p9] not think that would be good for anyone, for any of the people here, whatever their background; for any of the people who are searching for jobs, and I do not think it would be good for race relations. And I have to keep that very much in mind and I am sure you will understand and appreciate that point.

Question

In other words, it is just to regulate. You are not denying them their right to come to this country?

Prime Minister

No, I am not changing their right to come. That right was given to them. But I am saying that I really do not think I can take in any more at this particular time than we are taking in now, particularly when we have two and a half million unemployed, and you know the problems we are having, and you will feel them as much as I do, except that I get the blame for them!

Question

Prime Minister, let us come to this law and order thing. Recently, Roy Hattersley, the Shadow Home Secretary, was hit on his head with a chair and bruised, and that creates nervousness among the ethnic minority. Several [end p10] people have been murdered and shops burgled. What plans have you got to reassure the ethnic minority that they are your responsibility, because we do not think we are the responsibility of the countries of origin, of Pakistan or India; we are your people. How can you assure us that we belong to you?

Prime Minister

We live under one law. We are entitled to the protection of the police force. That law is administered wholly impartially. The police protect anyone who is in danger or difficulty. One law. It will continue to be one law. One set of rights, one set of responsibilities; the same set for everyone, and we must keep it that way. It is not different because of the colour of one's skin; it is not; it is one law. It is the police protecting people, whoever is in danger, doing their best, and after all, they were the targets of some awful attacks and I thought they were magnificent in the way in which they dealt with them.

Question

You mentioned, or you were quoted to have said that there are going to be four million coloured people in Britain by the turn of the century and that gives the impression that we are unwanted and are something of a liability. We would [end p11] like to hear from you, are we not making our contribution to society and are we not wanted?

Prime Minister

I used it in the sense to say: Look! The numbers are going to go on increasing - the numbers were given by a report that was published some time ago - the numbers are going to go on increasing. In this country, Mr. Kaul, we are more densely populated already in the United Kingdom than India - a good deal more densely populated. We simply cannot go on taking in more people; we cannot. It is a matter of common sense, but I do think that everyone should accept it, because otherwise we shall have more problems with race relations and I do not want that in any way.

I think so far, apart from the Bristol riots and the Brixton riots, we have done extremely well, and I wish that to continue. But if we go on having more and more people in, then the problems which we already have - and we have to import a lot to live - then we should have trouble. I do not want it!

Question

Prime Minister, I think it was Martin Luther King who said the riots are the voice of the unheard and it is the unheard who want to be heard by you and your Government, and [end p12] something done about them to give them a sense of security and sense of belonging. I repeat this. Could you say something reassuring to the ethnic minorities?

Prime Minister

I am a little bit shocked that you say riots are the voice of the unheard. There is no excuse whatsoever for riots in this country. It is a free country. Everyone has freedom of speech. They can make their views known through their Members of Parliament, through meetings. There is no excuse for riots by anyone, whatever their colour or background, and when they do it they do great harm to whatever is their cause, and may I make that absolutely clear, and I will do everything possible both to condemn and bring to justice those who get involved in riots and who throw petrol bombs, stones or anything at other people and put the life and limb of others in danger.

There are many many ways of making peoples' views known in a democracy. We are a free society and they should take that path. Yes, there are problems. There will continue to be problems. There are problems in finding enough jobs and we are doing our level best to find them, but that is one of the reasons why we just cannot go on taking in more people. But never resort to riot in this country if you have any respect for the cause you wish to put forward. [end p13]

Question

But those who are already here, Prime Minister, do you take the responsibility of ensuring their safety and their dignity?

Prime Minister

They are just as much entitled to the protection of the police, just as much obligated to obey and observe the law, as the rest of us. One law for all.

Question

Thank you, Prime Minister.