Speeches, etc.

Margaret Thatcher

House of Commons PQs

Document type: Speeches, interviews, etc.
Venue: House of Commons
Source: Hansard HC [992/186-90]
Editorial comments: 1515-30.
Importance ranking: Major
Word count: 2217
Themes: Civil liberties, Defence (arms control), Education, Primary education, Higher & further education, Monetary policy, Pay, Public spending & borrowing, Foreign policy (USSR & successor states), Labour Party & socialism, Local government
[column 186]

PRIME MINISTER

(Engagements)

Q1. Mr. Alton

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 11 November.

The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher)

In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be having meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. Later today I hope to have an audience of Her Majesty the Queen, and this evening my Cabinet colleagues and I will be giving a dinner in honour of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother.

Mr. Alton

Is the Prime Minister aware of the great resentment that has been caused throughout the country by the Government's decision to renege on the agreement with the firemen? Is it Government policy to go back on other agreements with other groups in the public sector?

The Prime Minister

Last year, when it came to the rate support grant, the Government fixed a cash limit of 13 per cent. No one called that an incomes policy—it was not. This year the Government have fixed a cash limit for the pay bill of 6 per cent. That is not an incomes policy, either. How local authorities allocate the 6 per cent. is a matter for them, as it was a matter for them how they allocated the 13 per cent.

Mr. Cormack

As my right hon. Friend prepares for dinner this evening, will she reflect on the fact that the hon. Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton) is no longer the most prominent republican in the House?

Mr. Straw

Will the right hon. Lady say what is an incomes policy?

The Prime Minister

I have long since wondered.

[column 187]

Mr. Foot

Is it because the right hon. Lady is still wondering what her policy is that she did not take the trouble to present to the House her proposals for the supposed 6 per cent? Does she now really tell us that in the case of the firemen there was no breach of faith? Does she really say that the firemen have been honourably treated? Does she really think that the decision of the Government in this matter will ease the settlement of future industrial disputes, when no one in such circumstances will be able to trust the word of the Government?

The Prime Minister

As I explained when asked a similar question last week, the Government have no locus in the negotiations between local authorities and firemen. If the right hon. Gentleman chooses to look it up, he will find that reply. The negotiations are conducted between the firemen and the local authorities and the Government have no standing. The Government come in in two ways only—first, by deciding the total increase of the total pay bill for local authorities, which we have done, and, secondly, only in relation to those duties of my right hon. Friend William Whitelawthe Home Secretary, through the fire inspection officer, about the numbers of firemen. Otherwise, the matter is wholly one for local authorities.

Mr. Whitney

Will my right hon. Friend find time today to reassure our NATO allies that the views held by the Leader of the Opposition on unilateral disarmament—which show that he has forgotten the lessons that he learnt 40 years ago—are not supported by the great majority of the British people?

The Prime Minister

I was so intent on the question that the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Foot) asked me, and so used to being questioned by him, that I forgot to do the courtesies that I should have done immediately. May I warmly congratulate him on the assumption of his important office? I hope that he will genuinely and truly enjoy it. From time to time Prime Ministers and Leaders of the Opposition have to hold consultations. I know that those consultations will be pursued as amicably as they were with his distinguished predecessor, the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan), to whom I am [column 188]very grateful for all the co-operation that we received during his time as Leader of the Opposition. I wish him a quieter life. As regards the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Mr. Whitney), our independent nuclear deterrent has formed part of the West's shield. It is one of the things that has held the balance between the great Powers. It has, therefore, assured the peace of this country, of the West, and of the Russian people.

Mr. Foot

I thank the right hon. Lady for her kind words, which were wedged between the other remarks that she made. Does not the right hon. Lady appreciate that millions of people in Britain are deeply concerned about the scale and pace of the arms race throughout the world? Is it not a crime and a folly that her Minister's statements show no recognition of that great fact?

The Prime Minister

The people of Britain would be far more worried, and would have occasion to be far more worried, if they did not have a proper and full defence policy to protect their liberties, which the right hon. Gentleman also cherishes.

WITCHAM

Q2. Mr. Freud

asked the Prime Minister whether she will visit Witcham.

The Prime Minister

I have at present no plans to do so, but should it prove possible I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would wish me to call in on Grunty Fen first.

Mr. Freud

Is the Prime Minister aware that the people of Witcham may well lose their excellent village school so that the local education authority can save the cost of two assisted places? Does she not agree that poverty—about which she is so concerned—can also be induced by depriving rural areas of essential amenities, such as village schools?

The Prime Minister

I share the hon. Gentleman's wish to maintain rural schools; and I always have done. This is a matter for the hon. Gentleman and his local education authority. I understand that proposals have not yet been put to my right hon. and learned Friend Mark Carlislethe Secretary of State for Education and Science. [column 189]I am sure that they will be. In the meantime, I am happy that Witcham's population of 251 has a high standard of employment and very few troubles.

PRIME MINISTER

(Engagements)

Q3. Mr. Dubs

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her public engagements for 11 November.

The Prime Minister

I refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave some time ago.

Mr. Dubs

What consultations took place with the trade unions involved, before the Government announced their 6 per cent. pay limit on public sector workers?

The Prime Minister

First, this is not, and never has been, a pay limit. Normal consultations took place with the local authorities. The Government decided that the ordinary people of Britain could afford to contribute only 6 per cent. to the increased local authority total pay bill. How that is allocated, precisely what negotiations are conducted, and the wage variations between the several groups of local authority employees is a matter for the local authorities concerned.

Mr. Heddle

Will my right hon. Friend take the opportunity today to remind the country of the words spoken by the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Foot) on 28 October 1975? He said then that inflation helped to cause unemployment. At one of my right hon. Friend's informal meetings behind Mr. Speaker's Chair, will she endeavour to encourage the right hon. Gentleman to assist her in her fight to bring down inflation?

The Prime Minister

I firmly believe that inflation creates unemployment. The only way to secure good job prospects is to pursue this Government's policies and to bring down inflation first.

Mr. Leighton

Is the right hon. Lady looking forward to her bare-knuckle fight with the CBI?

The Prime Minister

I am very much looking forward to seeing Sir Terence Beckett tomorrow. I hope that he is, too.

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Mr. Cyril D. Townsend

To what cause does my right hon. Friend attribute Soviet intransigence in Madrid? Is it due to their dismal record on human rights since Helsinki or is it due to the contemplation of military aggression against Poland? In either event, will my right hon. Friend make clear that it would be hopeless for the conference to proceed without a detailed and clear review of the implementation of the Final Act?

The Prime Minister

I regret that it has not been possible for the Madrid conference on the Helsinki accords to get under way. The Soviet Union does not wish its record on political repression to be shown in its true light.

Mr. Wigley

Will the Prime Minister find time today to consult local government on the effect of Government expenditure cuts on local services? Will she bear in mind that the county of Gwynedd faces £4 million worth of possible cuts, and that that means closing three old people's homes, one technical college, ending nursery education and doing away with large parts of the home help service? Does the right hon. Lady accept that that will be the result of the Government's policy?

The Prime Minister

How a local authority allocates its income from taxpayers and ratepayers is a matter for the local authority to decide. Too often, many of us have seen cuts made in sensitive areas, and too little in administration. If the hon. Gentleman is correct, and I have no doubt that he is, his remarks give enormous justification for saying that people in the public sector must take into account the capacity of the private sector to finance those who work in the public sector.

Mr. Squire

During her busy day would my right hon. Friend care to speculate on which of the many policies, previously advocated by the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Foot), will be the first to suffer a U-turn in his new capacity.

The Prime Minister

I just trust that Michael Footthe right hon. Gentleman will never have a chance to put them into effect. I recall that it was a woman who defeated him in Devonport.

Mr. English

Sexist!

[column 191]

CALLANDER PARK AND HAMILTON COLLEGES OF EDUCATION

Q4. Mr. Harry Ewing

asked the Prime Minister if she will agree to meet a deputation from Callander Park and Hamilton colleges of education to discuss the change in Government policy towards Scottish colleges of education.

The Prime Minister

No, Sir. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, the hon. Member for Edinburgh North (Mr. Fletcher) has already met deputations from both colleges and my right hon. Friend George Youngerthe Secretary of State has agreed to meet a further deputation from Hamilton.

Mr. Ewing

Does the Prime Minister recall that last time the future of colleges of education in Scotland was under consideration she took the trouble to come to Scotland and to take part in a party political broadcast on colleges of education? Does she recall that after she had accepted that there was a need to reduce the number of teachers being trained, she said that she believed that instead of merging and destroying colleges, they should be kept going? Why did she want to keep colleges going in 1977 when she was Leader of the Opposition and yet want to destroy them in 1980 when she is Prime Minister?

[column 192]

The Prime Minister

I never thought that we could keep all colleges of education going. As Secretary of State for Education I had to begin a programme for reducing colleges of education, a programme that my successors in that Department have had to uphold and, indeed, extend. It is no earthly good training teachers for jobs that will not be there due to the fall of 1 million in the number of school pupils in future. Such decisions may be painful, but they have to be taken and have been taken.

Mr. Ewing

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

LOCAL AUTHORITIES

(Expenditure)

Mr. Cryer

On a point of order Mr. Speaker. I wonder whether you have yet received an application from any member of the Government, particularly the Secretary of State for Employment, to make a statement on the 6 per cent. pay limit imposed on local authorities? A statement was requested by the Leader of the Opposition——

Mr. Speaker

Order. I dealt with that matter yesterday. I have had no request. It is a matter for the Government.