PRIME MINISTER
(ENGAGEMENTS)
Q1. Mr. Butcher
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 22 May.
The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher)
This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be having further meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. This evening I shall leave for a visit to the North-East of England.
Mr. Butcher
Will my right hon. Friend find time today to remind trade union leaders that pay has risen by 12 per cent. more than prices in the last three years while output has risen by a mere 5 per cent.? In expressing the hope that we are about to enter the post-Clegg era may I ask my right hon. Friend whether she agrees that a closer link between increases in wages and efficiency may, of necessity, mean an acceptance of pay increases less than the current rate of inflation?
[column 709]The Prime Minister
I agree with my hon. Friend that it is vital to achieve a closer link between increased pay and increased efficiency. For that purpose it may be necessary, for a time, for some firms to accept a rate of increase below the level of inflation. After all, the rate of increase that one is entitled to have is the rate of increase that is earned. Otherwise the extra goes into increased prices.
Mr. Foot
In the light of that reply will the right hon. Lady, either today or very soon, make arrangements to meet representatives of the nurses? Does the Prime Minister regard herself as being bound by the commitment which she herself made to the nurses just over a year ago? Will she tell the House and the country how she proposes to carry out that promise?
The Prime Minister
If the right hon. Gentleman looks at the increases afforded to the nurses he will find that they have been of the same order—about 65 per cent. or 66 per cent.—as have been afforded to doctors, in view of the latest award of the review body, since 1978.
Mr. Foot
Does the right hon. Lady think that that is a fulfilment of the pledge she gave to the nurses? Is she aware that the nurses do not think that it is a fulfilment of that pledge? Will the Prime Minister have an early meeting with the nurses to discuss the matter before she puts into operation the arrangements for the doctors, the dentists or the nurses?
The Prime Minister
I hope that the nurses would go to see my right hon. Friend Patrick Jenkinthe Secretary of State for Social Services. As the right hon. Gentleman will remember, we are pledged to put into effect the report of the review body on the doctors. It is the third stage, begun by the previous Labour Government, which we have honoured and will continue to honour. It is a good thing that we have taken over that pledge. When the doctors have received that amount they will have had the same as nurses will have had since 1978 assuming that the nurses take the 14 per cent. increase this year.
Mr. David Steel
Will the Prime Minister tell the House whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer's invitation to the trade [column 710]unions to discuss pay is the first step towards recognising the need for a pay policy? If it is not, will the Prime Minister explain how she expects the Scottish teachers, for example, to accept a pay rise of 14 per cent. which is 8 per cent. below the going rate of inflation unless that is to become a general rule fairly applied to everybody?
The Prime Minister
There is no general rule that can be applied to everyone, because circumstances are very different. The right hon. Gentleman would perhaps accept that a policy that tried to close the gap between increased pay and increased efficiency could in some ways be called a pay policy—the only sound pay policy that there is.
Mr. Kilfedder
Yesterday, when, despite her assurance last week, the Prime Minister had secret talks about Northern Ireland with the Prime Minister of the Irish Republic, a former gun-runner, whose brazen and hostile claim to the territory of Ulster acts as an incentive to the Provisional IRA, did the right hon. Lady make it absolutely clear to Mr. Haughey that the Ulster people, despite Provisional IRA atrocities, and whether or not the British guarantee remains, will never capitulate and be swallowed up by the most theocratic country in Western Europe, which still refuses to extradite IRA terrorists from the Republic and which still allows IRA Provisionals to operate from the Republic?
The Prime Minister
If the hon. Gentleman reads the communique, he will find what he seeks, in that I made it perfectly clear that the pledge that we have always given to Northern Ireland stands, that there will be no change in Northern Ireland's constitutional status unless a majority of the people of Northern Ireland wish it; and until they do Northern Ireland stays firmly within the United Kingdom.
“WHY WORK?” SYNDROME
Q2. Mr. Ralph Howell
asked the Prime Minister if she will make a statement on the steps being taken or proposed to deal with the “Why work?” syndrome.
The Prime Minister
The Government have sympathy with the views expressed [column 711]by my hon. Friend. Policies which encourage effort and improve the balance between income in work and out of work are central to our approach. The measures announced in my right hon. and learned Friend's Budget to bring short-term benefits into tax, and meanwhile to increase the uprating of these benefits by less than the rate of inflation, to improve substantially the family income supplement for lower-income families in work, and to withdraw the earnings-related supplement are examples of this policy in action.
Mr. Howell
I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Whilst I appreciate the great efforts that the Government have made to remedy the “Why work?” problem, does she not agree that incentives will be restored only when tax thresholds are raised considerably and the basic rate is considerably reduced?
The Prime Minister
I agree that we should like to do both those things, and that both would go quite a long way to deal with the problem on which my hon. Friend has taken such an excellent lead. But to raise the thresholds for single and married people would cost more than £700 million for each £100 by which they were raised. To reduce the standard rate of tax by 1p also costs about £700 million, so it is a very expensive policy.
Mr. Ioan Evans
Will the right hon. Lady get her priorities right? Rather than worrying about the “Why work?” syndrome, why does she not worry about the “Right to work demand” ? With 1½ million unemployed and massive redundancies in the steel and coal industries, why do not the Government change their economic policies?
The Prime Minister
I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman in that I look forward to the day when everyone can have a good job. I hope that he also put that point cogently to his own Front Bench when they were in government and had even more people out of work than we have now.
[column 712]PRIME MINISTER
(ENGAGEMENTS)
Q3. Mr. Neubert
asked the Prime Minister whether she will list her official engagements for 22 May.
The Prime Minister
I refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave earlier.
Mr. Neubert
Is my right hon. Friend aware that today is Professor Clegg 's sixtieth birthday? Will she be wishing him many happy returns, or does she think that both his age and his recent decisions eminently qualify him and his commission for early retirement?
The Prime Minister
It so happens that Professor Clegg let me know a few weeks ago that it was his intention to retire in September. My hon. Friend will also have heard that the terms of reference of the Clegg Commission are such that they have never been carried into operation. They were to study the feasibility of comparability, but in fact most of the references to the commission have asked it to make a recommendation. There is a question about whether one can establish genuine comparability between certain jobs.
Mr. McNamara
I revert to the Prime Minister's reply earlier to the hon. Member for Down, North (Mr. Kilfedder). Does she agree that if the continuing disturbances in Northern Ireland [Hon. Members: “Disturbances?” ]—indeed, the murder in Northern Ireland—place a great strain upon the economy of the Republic of Ireland, and enormous pressures upon its internal cohesion, the Prime Minister and people of the Republic have an interest in the settlement that is made within the Six Counties and have a right to be consulted about it as well?
The Prime Minister
Of course, the situation in Northern Ireland and the terrorism put a great burden upon that country and upon the people of Northern Ireland, not only in economic terms but in very human terms. But I must stress that we are getting very good co-operation on security matters across the border. Any change in the constitutional status of Northern Ireland is a matter for the people of Northern Ireland, this Government and this House.
[column 713]Mr. Myles
Will my right hon. Friend take time, despite her busy schedule today, to say a word of reassurance to our fishermen, because hers is a word that they know they can trust?
The Prime Minister
I shall gladly respond to my hon. Friend's invitation. The Government made a grant of £3 million to the fishing industry because of the serious and grave conditions that it faced. We keep constantly in touch with fishermen. I understand that my right hon. Friend George Youngerthe Secretary of State for Scotland expects to visit my hon. Friend's constituency a week on Saturday, when he will doubtless have a chance to talk with local skippers and hear their views first hand.
Mr. Fitt
May I revert to the meeting that the Prime Minister had yesterday afternoon with the Taioseach of the Irish Republic. Did she find any significant or specific difference of approach to the problems of Northern Ireland between the present Taioseach and that of his immediate predecessor? Was one more militant that the other—the present one or his predecessor?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman is inviting me to stray into dangerous paths. I must reject his invitation.
Q4. Mr. Trippier
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements on Thursday 22 May.
The Prime Minister
I refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave earlier.
Mr. Trippier
Does my right hon. Friend welcome the speech made earlier this week by Mr. Frank Chapple, emphasising the failure of trade union militancy in recent years and condemning sectionalism, selfishness and intimidation as well as unfair and undemocratic processes within the trade union movement?
The Prime Minister
I thought that it was an extremely interesting speech. Any selfishness on pay claims means that other people suffer through increased prices. We all know of the difficulties of intimidation and the problems it causes when people want to exercise their right to go to work. I thought that it was a speech to which we might all, including those in the trade union movement, give close attention.
[column 714]Mrs. Renée Short
Has the Prime Minister had a look at the latest unemployment figures, published two days ago? Is she aware that the present unemployment level in the West Midlands is now higher than the national average and that GKN Sankey is about to sack hundreds of workers in Wolverhampton, Telford and elsewhere? What does the right hon. Lady intend to do to reverse this trend, to give those who want to work a chance to have a job?
The Prime Minister
I am afraid that levels of unemployment will continue to rise over the coming months, as there are some necessary rationalisations and reductions in over-manning to be made. We must go through with them in order to increase productivity and to get the rest of our industries into an efficient condition in which they can compete in the real world.
Mr. McQuarrie
I accept what my right hon. Friend said to my hon. Friend the Member for Banff (Mr. Myles), but does she realise that in spite of the injection of £3 million into the fishing industry—which I welcome—there has been a serious deterioration in the industry? Can the Prime Minister find time urgently to meet the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to try to assist the fishermen? Does she accept that because time is not on their side they will go under unless something is done urgently?
The Prime Minister
I meet Peter Walkerthe Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and George Youngerthe Secretary of State for Scotland comparatively frequently. We consider and discuss the problems in the Common Market of trying to achieve a suitable fisheries policy. We recognise the urgency. My right hon. Friends are in constant touch with the fishing industry.
SPECIAL CONTROL UNITS
Mr. Meacher
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I wish to raise the question of the special control units which were devised under the previous Conservative Government to provide a regime of psychological and social deprivation——
[column 715]Mr. Speaker
Order. Is the hon. Gentleman making an application under Standing Order No. 9?
Mr. Meacher
No, Mr. Speaker. The special control units were devised under the last Conservative Government to provide a regime of deprivation for intractable prisoners. Documents relating to that experiment which show clearly that the House and the public were deliberately kept in the dark were recently handed over in court to the National Council for Civil Liberties. They have been impounded by a gagging writ served on the NCCL legal officer——
Mr. Speaker
Order. I am afraid that I am not able to help the hon. Gentleman. It is clear that he is not referring to anything which breaks our Standing Orders. This is not a point of order. The hon. Member should pursue the matter in some other way.
Mr. Meacher
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker——
Mr. Speaker
Order. Very exceptionally, when there is no point of order, I accept the phrase “further to that point of order” —but only for a brief time.
Mr. Meacher
I am grateful to you, Mr. Speaker. I have already written to the Prime Minister on this matter——
Mr. Speaker
Order. That settles the matter.