Mr. Tam Dalyell (West Lothian)
Listening to this debate, a number of us can be forgiven for feeling a little sad about the speeches of our Irish colleagues on both sides of the House. It is not that hon. Members on this side, or those on the other side, have been uninterested in Northern Ireland. Many of us have taken a serious interest and have been there on visits. I speak for no one but myself. I believe, however, that a number of my colleagues feel that there is nothing good that we can actually do about it.
In a debate during a past Summer Recess recall, I interrupted the then Leader of the Opposition, the right hon. Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath), to ask whether, with the possible exception of Lord Mountjoy in the reign of Queen Elizabeth, any Englishman or Scot, including Charles I, Strafford, Gladstone or anyone else, had had success in Ireland. I say to our Irish colleagues, at this stage in the Parliament, that it is not that we are uninterested. It is just that many of us think that we are no good when it comes to Irish affairs.
As a Scot, I must say that I was sad and rather ashamed at the speech of the [column 539]leader of the Scottish National Party. His speech was laced with fiction and untruth. I am sorry that none of the Scottish National Party is present when I am making this kind of remark. But it gives our English colleagues a taste, as my hon. Friend the Member for Renfrewshire, West (Mr. Buchan) will know, of what we get week in and week out. It accounts for some of our attitudes.
We are concerned partly in this debate with the future constitutional arrangements of Scotland. I would like to ask, in wholly courteous terms—I believe it is an important question—whether the Leader of the Opposition would clarify one remark that she made. She said that any such decision must be left to the new Parliament. This is not a trick question or, I hope, an offensive one. I would like to know precisely what decision is to be left to the new Parliament.
The right hon. Lady has to face up to the fact that, during the referendum campaign, two very different things were being said by members of her party. On the one hand, there was the view of the right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire (Mr. Pym), the hon. and learned Member for Cleveland (Mr. Brittan) and a number of her Scottish colleagues who were in favour of devolution but not this Act. Last week, as some of my Scottish colleagues know, even the vice-chairman of the Conservative Party in Scotland, Mr. Michael Ancram, was going round saying that this Act was not good enough. I do not think I distort what he said. But what, then, is, “good enough” ?
There is that strand that wants a better Bill. I am in no doubt, and neither are my colleagues in the Labour Vote “No” campaign, a separate organisation, that there was a substantial Conservative “Yes” vote in the referendum. That was especially so in the Grampian region, although it was present in other regions. No accurate figure may be placed on that vote, but I am certain, as are my colleagues, that the size of the Conservative “Yes” vote was much more considerable than those who sought a “No” vote wanted from their own point of view. That is a fact that I present to the House. There is that strand of opinion in the Conservative Party.
There is a second strand. I shared no platforms with Conservatives, so perhaps [column 540]I speak at second hand, but it is a fact that there is a second strand that says that it is impossible to have a subordinate Parliament in a part and only a part of a United Kingdom. Those who form the second strand of opinion say that the scheme that was presented by the Government, or anything remotely like it, is unworkable and impossible.
I have put the two different arguments before the House. I invite the right hon. Lady the Leader of the Opposition to clarify her position. I ask her to do so without making any definite binding remarks and without making a great statement. Will the right hon. Lady clarify what she really thinks about the statement that “any decision must be left to the new Parliament” ? Which side of the argument does she genuinely favour?
Mrs. Thatcher
I am glad to respond to Tam Dalyellthe hon. Gentleman's invitation. I think that the hon. Gentleman knows that I believe that the present Act cannot be amended. I was referring to any fresh proposals which might arise from discussions which have not yet taken place, that is all.
Mr. Dalyell
That is exactly the difficulty that we are in. Do the fresh proposals bear any relationship to the proposals that were put forward by the Government? Those like me think that the proposals that were put forward by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House and others were the best proposals if such a scheme were to be put forward. I think that that is the view of my hon. Friend the Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Kinnock), who I see is nodding. We think that it was probably the best scheme that could be put forward. Those who are concerned with the future constitutional arrangements of the United Kingdom are worried about the sort of proposals to which the right hon. Lady is referring when she mentions proposals. I invite her once again to say what sort of proposals she has in mind.
Mrs. Thatcher
We have not even had any discussions to ascertain what sort of proposals should be put forward. I believe that the present round should be completed. The orders should have been laid and they should have been voted upon. I never exclude any future possibilities that might arise from proposals between the parties. The experience that we have had [column 541]shows that no fresh proposal will ever get through unless it has a widespread measure of support in the House at the outset. How can I say what any such proposal can possibly be before any discussions have even taken place?
Mr. Dalyell
The right hon. Lady has done me a great courtesy. I think, as do many of my colleagues in the Labour Vote “No” campaign, that proposals in this form, or anything like it, do not exist. I and my colleagues believe that we cannot have a subordinate Parliament in part and only a part of a United Kingdom. If there is to be a complete United Kingdom examination of democracy with a view to bringing government closer to the people, that is a different matter.
I say without rancour and without bitterness that at some time in the coming weeks the right hon. Lady will have to make up her mind between what has been written about her by her hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) as the Ayatollah Taylor—I am not being offensive because I have been called the Ayatollah Dalyell—and what is being written about those who take a hard, unqualified “No” view, and those who are searching after some sort of will-o'-the-wisp devolution and say “Yes” , we are devolutionists, but not with this scheme.” At some time in the coming weeks the right hon. Lady will have to come down one side or the other of the devolution fence.