TUC
Q1. Mr. Ridley
asked the Prime Minister when he expects next to meet the Trades Union Congress.
The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan)
I hope to meet the general council of the TUC tomorrow.
Mr. Ridley
Does the right hon. Gentleman recall the social contract whereby he conceded long-term privileges to the trade union movement in return for a guarantee of what may be called industrial peace in our time, since when there have been 34 days of industrial chaos following his return from sunny Guadeloupe? Will he therefore eschew entering into a concordat with the TUC? Why does he not stop feeding the hand that bit him?
The Prime Minister
The social contract led to a period of substantial industrial peace. The number of days lost through industrial disputes between 1975 and 1978 were far fewer than those lost during the lifetime of the Conservative Administration, especially during its last year. Secondly, the effect of the social [column 952]contract was to enable us to overcome some of the follies of the previous Administration through its excessive use of money supply, which led to inflation. Thirdly, it enabled us to ensure that low-paid workers, both through the £6 a week increase and the 5 per cent. increase, had a greater improvement in their standard of life than some had ever obtained before by free collective bargaining.
Mr. David Steel
When the Prime Minister meets the Trades Union Congress tomorrow, will he point out to it some of the similarities—I put it no higher than that—between the proposals in the pamphlet “A Better Way” produced by some trade union leaders and the proposals published this morning in the CBI's booklet on pay policy? Will he tell the TUC that, although he will encourage the further development of that consensus, at the end of the day Parliament cannot subcontract its responsibilities on these matters to any outside body, and that he will bring the consensus back to the House and place whatever he has before us?
The Prime Minister
I am glad to say that there is much reflection and thinking about the way in which we handle wage claims and the need for establishing proper relativities and comparability. I welcome such views from wherever they come, from the CBI or members of the TUC. I hope that we are all agreed that the present method does not look as if it is being very satisfactory. I hope that the position of Parliament will be safeguarded. Initially, I should like to see an analysis made between the Government and all interests concerned, whether they be unions, employers, managers or anybody else, on what the economy can do and the likely consequences for wages, investment and consumer expenditure.
Mr. Bidwell
Has my right hon. Friend had a chance to study the Tribune Group's wise statement on wages and inflation? Will he accept that many of us believe that if he accepts the message contained in the statement he can still be Britain's best Prime Minister after the next general election?
The Prime Minister
I am grateful for that testimonial. I will ask my hon. Friend to give me a signed statement to that effect. I have not yet had a chance of [column 953]studying this latest series of proposals. I would only say that, if the level of wage settlements gets out of hand, it will not be possible to accelerate further the growth of the economy. These two things are just not possible if one is to keep a stable currency and ensure that the balance of payments does not get out of hand, and if we are not to lose our competitive position. There must be some restraint in these matters. We cannot do it all.
Mr. Marten
On a more optimistic note, can the Prime Minister give any indication when he sees an end to his winter of confrontation?
The Prime Minister
There is no confrontation that I am aware of. It takes two to effect a confrontation. The Leader of the Opposition has already declared that she will confront anybody. My view is that the best thing for this country is to try to secure the support and the agreement of the people of this country. That is the right way forward.
Prime Minister
(Engagements)
Q2. Mr. McCrindle
asked the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for 13 February.
The Prime Minister
In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be holding meetings with ministerial colleagues and others.
Mr. McCrindle
Although the Prime Minister did not say so, am I correct in understanding that this morning he entertained His Royal Highness at No. 10 Downing Street? May I express my pleasure at the fact that this has been done but inquire whether this was an open-dated invitation or whether the Prime Minister insisted that it had to be now for fear that later this year the person greeting him would be my right hon. Friend?
Mr. Speaker
I did not hear the beginning of the hon. Gentleman's question. If I had, I would have pulled him up. It is not customary to make such references in questions.
Mr. MacFarquhar
Will my right hon. Friend, with reference to comparability and relativity, give consideration to the [column 954]way public sector wages are settled? Will he take up with the Trades Union Congress the inadvisability of continuing a system whereby wages are settled by different bodies at different times when they should be settled altogether in an integrated manner to avoid constant leapfrogging?
The Prime Minister
Yes. This is a great problem. In my discussions and those of other Ministers with the TUC, we have covered this matter. I believe that there is growing agreement that some continuing arrangements are required in order that we should be fair to those who are employed in the public services. At the same time, we should avoid leapfrogging claims. My own view—I have not yet got full agreement to this—is that some body is needed to analyse what is taking place and, as soon as we can get agreement, to deliver its views on what is necessary in these matters. I warn Conservative Members that one must proceed by agreement.
Mrs. Thatcher
As there have been tragic events today in Rhodesia which will have engaged James Callaghanthe Prime Minister's attention, may I take the opportunity to put to him two brief questions?—[Hon. Members: “There is a PNQ.” ] Indeed, there was a PNQ on former President Bhutto last week, but that did not prevent the Prime Minister from answering at Question Time. Is the Prime Minister aware that we on this side of the House wholly and utterly condemn the callous act of the Patriotic Front in shooting down a civilian aircraft with the loss of 59 lives, some of them British as well as those who were Rhodesian? May I also ask the Prime Minister what is his policy regarding democratic elections in Rhodesia on 20 April? Is he aware that the result of the Rhodesian referendum was one of the most heartening results for a long time—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker
Order. The right hon. Lady must be heard.
Mrs. Thatcher
Is the Prime Minister aware that the result of the Rhodesian referendum, which gave actual proof for the first time that the white Rhodesians welcome and wanted black majority rule was one of the most heartening we have had for a long time? What arrangements is he making to secure——
[column 955]Mr. Buchan
On a point of order——
Mr. Speaker
Order. There can be no point of order now. I will take it at the end of Question Time.
Mr. Buchan
With respect——
Mr. Speaker
The hon. Gentleman knows our custom. He is only wasting Prime Minister's Question Time. I will take his point of order at the end of Question Time.
Mrs. Thatcher
What arrangements is the Prime Minister making to ensure that those elections are held in as peaceful conditions as possible? Will he send observers from this country?
The Prime Minister
As regards the tragic news from Rhodesia today, there can be no excuse and no sympathy for those who shoot down a civilian airliner. It is a barbaric act, the latest of a series of barbaric acts which I regret to say have not been confined to one side. There is strong evidence to this effect. It is no use blinding ourselves to this fact. Her Majesty's Government appeal to both sides to avoid civilian atrocities by whoever they may be committed.
It is our view that the best way forward is for the leaders of the internal settlement to get together with the leaders of the Patriotic Front in order that they should put an end to this war that is taking place. I know of no way of ending this war unless there are conversations and negotiations between both sides. It is clear that neither side has the capacity to secure a victory in this situation. That is why both sides of this House should be encouraging all of them to come together in discussions.
As regards the question of elections, it will be for the House, if it wishes later, to take a view on whether it wishes to send observers to elections, if, indeed they are held. But it is certainly not within the power of the House or of the Government, as the right hon. Lady knows, to ensure that those elections are peaceful.
On the last point, I note, if I may, that the practice in relation to private notice questions seems to have altered within the last week or two.
Mr. Newens
Between his engagements today, my right hon. Friend must have been considering developments in Iran. [column 956]Will he make clear that many of us who utterly deplore the torture, executions and repression of the previous regime wish the new regime well but hope that it will base its policies on a respect for human rights which was conspicuously absent from the Government of the Shah?
The Prime Minister
Whatever expectations any Opposition Members may hold, I believe that we all share my hon. Friend's hope that the new Government will accept their obligations to ensure that human rights are properly observed in Iran. Her Majesty's Government have today asked our ambassador in Tehran to make contact with the new Government of Dr. Bazargan and to say to him that we look forward to establishing good relations with the new administration. This constitutes an act of recognition on the part of the United Kingdom Government of the Government of Iran.
Mrs. Knight
Will the Prime Minister spend some time considering the serious implications of a report issued today by the British Chamber of Commerce in France warning of the severe loss of British exports to France because of constant delays, price rises and other difficulties connected with industrial unrest? Can the Prime Minister do anything about this situation? Is he aware that France is our third biggest market?
The Prime Minister
On the question of price rises, I am glad to have the hon. Lady's support for the Government's fight to keep inflation down. I wish that it had been expressed a little more practically by her voting for us when the Price Commission Bill was going through the House. As regards the question of exports, I agree with what the hon. Lady said. I expressed last week the great concern felt by the Government about the interruption to our exports which resulted from industrial action during January. There must be a very big effort to overtake the delays that occurred then and to ensure that we do not lose orders.
Mr. Buchan
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. As you know, it is rarely that I try to interrupt Question Time, but, as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister remarked, there has been a change of practice in relation to questions to the Prime Minister when they are followed by a private notice question. [column 957]
Last week, we were faced with the possibility of a tragic event occurring and a statement from the Prime Minister was obviously vital. The whole House accepted that. On this occasion, we are to have a private notice question dealing with a tragic event that has occurred. That event cannot be pre-empted by a statement by the Prime Minister.
Even apart from the general precedent, it has been the custom that when such a private notice question is put down, all hon. Members, including the Leader of the Opposition, are able to ask questions. It seems to be an abuse of Question Time when advantage is taken of that situation, especially given the length of the right hon. Lady's question, which took the form of a statement. I ask you, Mr. Speaker, to reconsider that position.
Mr. Faulds
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker
Order. Does the hon. Gentleman really believe that he is going to help the House?
Mr. Faulds
Yes, Mr. Speaker. I am eager to help the House in this matter of the abuse of some of its practices. It is clear that in the old days the Leader of the Opposition would have come in on the private notice question. Her action today is yet another glaring example of what has happened because of the introduction of microphones. As the House knows, I have been opposed to the introduction of these things since the inception of the scheme. We have seen yet another glaring example of what happens when they are introduced. Before we agreed to the broadcasting of the House, the right hon. Lady would have waited for the PNQ to make her point and would not have come in on Prime Minister's questions. She wanted her point of view to be broadcast.
Mr. Speaker
There is no doubt that microphones, like telephones, are a mixed blessing. As for the questions that the right hon. Lady asked, they are her responsibility and not mine.