TUC
Q1. Mr. Ward
asked the Prime Minister when last he met the TUC.
The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan)
I met the general council of the Trades Union Congress yesterday.
Mr. Ward
I welcome that fact, but will my right hon. Friend tell the House whether he received any response to his repeated requests for advice on how to contain inflation in this pay round? Did he discuss these problems with regard to the next pay round? Did he receive any indication from the member unions about whether they were considering following the lead of the TGWU in issuing a code of conduct which would turn picketing into something more like a rapier and less like a blunderbuss?
The Prime Minister
We discussed both those issues yesterday. On the economic front, we discussed how to keep inflation down and I expressed some views on the aims that the country might set itself when the present burst of wage claims has run its course, as I dare say it will, although I hope that it does not do too much damage to the country in the process. We decided, therefore, to have fresh discussions on this matter. A small group of Ministers will be meeting the TUC to discuss this.
On the question of industrial action during disputes, which has caused a great deal of justifiable concern in the country, as well as in the House, it was agreed that a small group of Ministers, led by the Secretary of State for Employment, should meet representatives of the TUC to draw up, I hope quickly, a justifiable code of practice during such disputes that would protect essential services and prevent individuals from being harassed as they went about their daily work. I explained to the TUC my strong conviction that it was necessary that these issues should be brought to a conclusion very quickly.
Mrs. Thatcher
Will James Callaghanthe Prime Minister say whether the speech of William Rodgersthe Secretary of State of Transport in his constituency at the weekend represents Government policy?
[column 1231]The Prime Minister
My right hon. Friend was explaining that past history shows the consequence of unbridled wage settlements. They have led in the past to a wage freeze, and that could be the conclusion now. But the Government have no intention of introducing a wage freeze, certainly not at this stage of the wages round. On the other hand, it is our determination to try to ensure that we get settlements as close as possible to the Government's acknowledged view that 5 per cent. is right, a figure at which many people have already settled. The closer we get to that, the less will be the prospect of inflation.
Mrs. Thatcher
The Secretary of State for Transport's speech on a pay and prices freeze was specific. Will the Prime Minister be equally specific and say whether or not he agreed with it?
The Prime Minister
Had the right hon. Lady not been so anxious to get in a second supplementary question, she might have listened to my answer. Shall I repeat it for her? The Government have no intention of introducing a wage freeze at this stage of the wages round.
Mrs. Thatcher
The answer therefore is “No” . What has happened to the doctrine of Cabinet responsibility?
The Prime Minister
Individual Ministers are entitled, certainly in circumstances like this, to put forward considerations which will lead, instruct, guide and inform public opinion. I have defined collective Cabinet responsibility on many occasions, and that definition remains the same.
Mr. David Steel
How can the Prime Minister go on saying that the Government's guidelines is 5 per cent. when, for example, there has just been a 21 per cent. settlement in the lorry drivers' dispute in the West Country? In the light of that, has he yet received any proposal from any of the union leaders along the lines of the philosophy that, at the end of the day, if there is no voluntary agreement, Parliament must lay down the framework within which wage as well as price increases can be allowed?
The Prime Minister
I go on saying that this is a guideline, because that is precisely what it is. The Government are not involved in negotiations between trade [column 1232]unions and their employers. What we can do—as we have done and have spelt out on innumerable occasions—is to suggest the best settlement for the conquering of inflation in this country. Let me repeat it once again. If everyone's increase averages 15 per cent., he will be no better off than if the increase averaged 5 per cent. That is a simple fact. But we live in a democracy. Statutory policies of the sort espoused by the right hon. Gentleman have had their place in the past, but they have been shown to be no more successful than periods of free collective bargaining. The plain truth is that neither solution is acceptable. Therefore, we in this country must practise a little self-discipline.
Mr. Ron Thomas
Did my right hon. Friend discuss with the TUC the role and motives of the media, not least the BBC, in creating the image of a crisis situation which has had nothing in common with what was really happening in the country? Will he consider suggesting to the BBC and ITV that when their interviewers interview those on strike they should themselves disclose their own total incomes?
The Prime Minister
I think that the opinion of the country is clear. That is why the high tide of hysteria, which was demonstrated in some parts of the media, is now receding. But that is not to disguise the fact that in relation to exports, orders and lost production the country has had a most serious setback as a result of the disputes over the last few weeks. In no sense has it been the kind of hysterical situation which, I am afraid, has been fomented in some quarters. However, that is not to disguise the seriousness of it.
Mr. Evelyn King
Does the Prime Minister accept that in relation to industrial unrest no one in this House wishes the Government to be guilty of provocation? Nor does anyone wish them to be guilty of political cowardice. But the line between the two is very thin. In so far as the Government hesitate to enforce the law, and do not enforce the right of citizens to go about their daily business without fear, it is on the second charge that they are likely to be guilty.
The Prime Minister
Of course, we stand that risk. As I have said many [column 1233]times—the hon. Gentleman states it correctly—the line between provocation, where one makes the situation worse, and cowardice, where one does not carry out one's duty, is very thin. Governments must be the best judge of that. I can only leave it to the citizens of this country to determine whether or not we are drawing the line correctly. [Hon. Members: “No.” ] I do not expect the Conservative Opposition to think so, but that is what they are there for. As to enforcing the law, the hon. Gentleman perhaps wanted to say that it is for the police to enforce the law. Certainly, the Government do not stand in the way of the police carrying out their duty. They are encouraged to carry out their duty where they think that it would be appropriate to intervene.
EUROPEAN ASSEMBLY
(MEMBERS' SALARIES)
Q2. Mr. Ridley
asked the Prime Minister what suggestions he made at the European summit in December 1978 in relation to the salaries of European Members of Parliament.
The Prime Minister
It was agreed at the meeting of the European Council on 4 and 5 December that the emoluments of Members of the European Assembly should be based on those of Members of national Parliaments, and should be subject to national taxation. I supported this approach.
Mr. Ridley
How does the Prime Minister square reducing the salaries of our elected representatives in Europe to the level of hon. Members of this House while apparently being satisfied that British commissioners and British civil servants in Brussels should receive the much higher European rates? Is not that to discriminate against the politicians in favour of the bureaucrats?
The Prime Minister
Fortunately, it is not my responsibility to have to reconcile these two things—[Hon. Members: “Oh.” ]—It is not the Government's responsibility to fix the salaries of civil servants in Brussels. It is the responsibility of Parliament only to fix the salaries of Members from this country who attend the European Assembly. I suggest that [column 1234]the hon. Gentleman is failing in his usual, logical approach to these matters.
Mr. Fernyhough
Has my right hon. Friend seen the report in European News that discrimination in this respect would be overcome by increasing the expenses of European Members—rent allowances and every other expense? Will he ensure that this does not happen with regard to our representatives?
The Prime Minister
I have not seen that report, but I shall certainly take it into account if any proposals have to be made to Parliament in due course.
PRIME MINISTER (ENGAGEMENTS)
Q3. Mr. Iain MacCormick
asked the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 30 January.
The Prime Minister
This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet. I also spoke at the lunch given by the Evening Standard for the winners of its drama awards—and a very agreeable occasion it was. I must say that I enjoyed the company there much better than I sometimes enjoy it here. It was much more receptive and appreciative than are the Conservative Opposition. In addition to my duties in this House I shall be holding further meetings with ministerial colleagues and others.
Mr. MacCormick
Bearing in mind the Prime Minister's obviously impossible position in dealing with the present situation in this country, will he turn his attention for a moment to Scotland? Because of the hurdles placed in the way of the coming referendum, largely by the Conservative Opposition and by some of his own rogue elephant colleagues, and because of the possibility of bad weather, will he look sympathetically at the possibility of holding the referendum over two days rather than just one?
The Prime Minister
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his suggestion. But I think we should perhaps proceed in the way that we have already decided, have the referendum on one day and hope that God will smile on Scotland and Wales on that day. As to the hon. Gentleman's sympathy with me about what he called the impossible task that I have today, a little historical perspective [column 1235]enables one to regard this with a certain detached philosophy and a great belief in the British people will enable us to come through.
Mr. Canavan
Will my right hon. Friend today find time to explain his earlier remarks about the demand by the Secretary of State for Transport for a statutory wage freeze? Does he agree that such a policy would attack the living standards of the lower paid and cause almost as much damage to trade union relations as some of the more irresponsible statements of the Leader of the Opposition? If collective responsibility is a good enough doctrine to silence or sack a Parliamentary Private Secretary, why is the Secretary of State for Transport still in the Cabinet?
The Prime Minister
On that basis, I sometimes think that I would govern alone, perhaps with one or two exceptions—and how much worse it would all be then. But seriously, I have nothing to add to what I have already said, which should satisfy my hon. Friend.
Mr. Pardoe
Will the Prime Minister be a little more specific about the reply that he gave to my right hon. Friend the Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. Steel), when he said that he did not intend to introduce a wage freeze “at this time in the wage round” ? Does he intend to introduce a wage freeze at a later time in the wage round? Does he recognise that if there is to be a wage freeze at all to save us from inflation, it had better be sooner rather than later, otherwise the going rate will be 20 per cent? However, he can save the day now by introducing it now.
The Prime Minister
I said “not at this stage in the wage round” on the ground that a number of settlements have already gone through, and therefore it would be extremely unfair to say that, for example, local authority workers should have no increase at all. That was the significance of the words “at this stage” . An offer has been made to local government workers of an increase—a substantial improvement in their low pay and a study of comparability, which they do not all understand. I agree that it is a little extraordinary that people should repudiate the idea of a norm when we have a new definition of “norm” , [column 1236]which is the going rate. That is what the Government must set their mind against. I cannot explain in detail what the hon. Gentleman asks. I cannot be pinned down in this way.
If the House will permit me a little licence, it rather reminds me of what someone said would have happened if Sir Winston Churchill had made his speech on television about fighting on the beaches, and the interviewer had asked “Exactly which beach do you intend to fight on, Sir Winston?”
Mr. Rifkind
Has the Prime Minister studied the Attorney-General's statement that the present law on picketing permits what he describes as “lawful intimidation” ? If the Attorney-General is correct, is this not overwhelming evidence that the present law on picketing needs changing?
The Prime Minister
I have studied the statement made by my right hon. and learned Friend. Although that statement aroused a certain amount of laughter, I could think of a perfect illustration of lawful intimidation. When the Leader of the Opposition threatened the hon. Member for Stretford (Mr. Churchill) that he would lose his post if he did not walk through the Lobby, that was lawful intimidation.
Mr. Adley
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is a condition of employment to be regarded as lawful intimidation?