Gordon Burns
[talking to studio audience] … just one moment, because all the arrangements seem to be going very smoothly. I understand Mrs Thatcher is in the building and at this moment I hope she'll be coming through that door there. In fact, here she is, would you give a warm welcome to Mrs Thatcher [loud applause]. Right, another warm burst of applause, northern applause there for you Mrs Thatcher. If you're ready to take the first question, we'll go straight into it. So Granada 500, first one to put a question to the leader of the Conservative Party, Mrs Thatcher. Let's start then with somewhere in the front row. That lady there, would you like to put your question to Mrs Thatcher?
Questioner
Do you think, Mrs Thatcher, that because you're a woman, your party is going to lose a lot of male votes?
MT
Well I don't know whether it will lose some votes because of it, but I think it will gain more votes because of it, because I think that there are an awful lot of women who know that I know in practice the same sort of things that they know.
Questioner
Well, a lot of men that I've spoken to have said “I would vote Conservative if a man was the leader of the party” .
MT
Oh, how very strange. Well I hope they'll still vote Conservative. You know, it's as well they didn't live in Elizabethan times, isn't it? [laughter]—the first Queen Elizabeth. After all, we did very well then, very well.
Gordon Burns
Let's move into another question. Let's see, all hands going up. Why not take another lady. Let's go about six rows up, there's a lady there with reddish hair, would you like to put a question? Right.
Questioner
In a recent statement issued by Moss Evans, the leader of the Transport and General Workers Union, he said that working with a Conservative government would be like going on a cross-country run bare foot. Now that's very undemocratic, but, of course, you are going to come up against such hardline unionists if you are returned at the next session of Parliament. What sort of tactics are you going to take against these militants? [end p1]
MT
Look I think, if there are hardline militants in the unions, any government's going to come up against them, because they are going to use the powers they've got against any government and my point is a perfectly simple one. Someone's got to tackle this problem. I offered the James CallaghanPrime Minister support if he would tackle it at the time of the worst of the winter strikes. He didn't, so we shall have to tackle it. There are some things that we will just have to do immediately. Some of the picketing that we saw was absolutely intolerable and worried a lot of people and deprived some of them of jobs. We saw blockading of ports, blockading of factories, which in fact had no dispute between their employers and employees. So we've got to change the law on picketing. Now, one thing that made picketing very bad indeed was the closed shop powers, because men and women going to work could be threatened that if they did cross the picket lines they'd lose their card and that meant losing their job. So we must change the closed shop rules. I'm also particularly anxious to have a secret ballot. I'm very willing for government—which after all is taxpayers—to pay the cost of a secret ballot. I think it would be cheap at the price. But above all, we have to remember this, there are 12 million members of trade unions. They're not sort of a set of people apart. I imagine there are many of them among the audience. They're just like the rest of us. They have the same ambitions for their families. They really would rather like to get on by their own efforts. They don't like paying too much tax. They are very keen on law and order. There aren't many who are militants, and between us, all of us, we have together to deal with those militants and that's why I want to help with a postal ballot or secret ballot, because I am determined that those few destroyers should not destroy the freedom which I was brought up to believe was the heritage of every British citizen. [loud applause] [end p2]
Gordon Burns
We've heard two ladies' questions. Let's go to a man now. Let's see who would like to come in next. Let's go to someone in the centre here. We'll take the gentleman there.
Questioner
Er, Mrs Thatcher, you say that to deal with unemployment you're going to try and expand small businesses. I'd like to know how you're going to do this, considering there's an economic world recession.
MT
Yes, but, you know, other countries have done very much better during the same world recession than we have, very much better indeed. And even if you look at imports into this country, there've been rather a lot, so there's quite a lot of demand in this country which is being satisfied by goods from overseas. I need hardly tell you that in Bolton. You know it. Now, how are we going to expand small businesses? Because I think you … you agree with me that that's where new jobs will come from, and usually—well, if you look at all the surveys, you see that new jobs come from today's small businesses which may be tomorrow's big businesses. You can do it in two ways: first by giving far more incentives to those who run small businesses. That does of course mean that they pay far too much in tax. Don't we all? But you've got to look after the people who are prepared to work jolly hard and to create today's and tomorrow's businesses. If we don't look after them, there won't be any subsidies or any extra wealth for the National Health Service, for education or for pensions. We've got to. They pay far too much tax. Secondly, if they do grow, then if the next Government were to clobber them with a wealth tax—we shouldn't but a Labour Government would—that just stops them from growing just when they want to grow bigger, and instead they'd have to turn round and pay tax instead of ploughing back the money into their business to expand it. That's ridiculous if you want businesses to expand. And the third thing is this, there's an Act on the statute book which you'll know about, be familiar with, called the Employment Protection Act. It doesn't really protect jobs. In fact, it often destroys jobs, because it means that quite a lot of small businesses are afraid to take on more people, because of the difficulty of standing them off if they're not suitable. Now, there are 800,000 small businesses in this country. Even if only a quarter of them took on one young person, think what a tremendous opportunity that would be for young people who can't get jobs. But, unless we do something about it we shall not get genuine jobs with good prospects tomorrow. Artificial jobs are temporary. Young people want genuine jobs with good prospects. They're not getting them now.
Gordon Burns
There are, I know, so many of you who want to put questions, so I'll try and get to as many as possible, and hopefully Mrs Thatcher can be as concise as possible in giving those …
MT
[end p3] [laughing] All right! Consider myself rebuked!
Gordon Burns
And let's go to that gentleman with his left hand up there …
Questioner
Mrs Thatcher, we read and hear that there are going to be proposed cuts in direct taxation and also increases in government spending on defence. We understand that some of the money is going to be recouped by cuts in public spending. Could you be more specific and tell us where these cuts are likely to fall?
MT
Well, can I just, before dealing with that, make one point? Everyone today somehow assumes that if you cut personal tax you've got to recoup it somewhere else. Can I point out that during our thirteen years when we were in Government, we actually managed to cut personal tax and increase social service spending at the same time? You wouldn't think it possible until you think of the magic answer, and in fact, regularly during those years, we got an extra slice of growth every year, and one of the purposes of cutting tax is to give the people the incentive to work harder. I believe that in a free country if they're given that incentive they'll go for it and we shall get that increased output. Then, of course, from the increased output you'll still get the yield. And that's one of the points of cutting tax, and you don't necessarily have to recoup everything from somewhere else.
Now, let's go on to your cutting public spending. Geoffrey Howe did a very long and detailed speech about this. First, we would cut the money for nationalisation. You know that the National Enterprise Board had its budget cut, put up from £1,000 million immediately to £3,000 million and then possibly to £4,500 million. We think that's a lot of money and we think a lot of it's more back-door nationalisation. Now then, they've a watchdog committee on waste in the House of Commons called the Public Accounts Committee—after all, it's our duty to see that people's money is spent properly. And they give example after example of waste, all sorts of things. Let me just give you one or two. There's a Bootle computer centre which took thirteen years to construct. The cost of it went up five times. Let me give you another example in local authorities: Camden, it's a Labour authority, spent £3 million on building 42 council houses. That means you and I have to subsidise them to the tune of £150 a week, because of course you couldn't possibly get anything like the rent back. That committee estimates that in one year, if you cut out all the waste, it would amount to around £1,000 million. That's an awful lot of money. Perhaps that's enough to be going on with. Mr Burns, you said be concise. I think I could go on and answer a lot more [applause].
Gordon Burns
You see, there's sea of hands there. They'd like to ask you a lots and lots of questions.
MT
I know, I know. We'll have to stay here all afternoon! [end p4]
Gordon Burns
Let's try for another one. There's a gentleman with his left hand up in a dark suit and, I think, a white shirt. Would you like to put a question?
Questioner
Yes, Mrs. Thatcher, in view of the serious escalation of crime and strong public feelings regarding this matter, why is it there's never mention of a public referendum to reinstate corporal or capital punishment?
MT
I think because most of us realise that a referendum wouldn't tell us anything we don't know. And I firmly believe that, if we were to have such a referendum, something like seventy to eighty per cent of our people would vote to restore capital punishment. I think every survey tells us that. Now, I am answering now not as leader of the Conservative Party, but in my own personal capacity, because, whenever this comes up in the House of Commons, it is accepted that each person votes as they feel, and how they feel they are accountable to their own constituencies. And I must tell you that I have always voted for capital punishment, and when it comes up again I shall do so. I do feel very strongly that there are some murders that are so brutal, so callous, so malicious, that it is quite wrong for people to be able to go out and commit those murders knowing that their own lives cannot be forfeit. And so I, personally, would vote for the restoration of capital punishment [applause].
Gordon Burns
I think you made your own conditions there, Mrs Thatcher. I think the questioner said, “Would you support a public referendum?”
MT
I don't think … I don't think so, because I think we really would know the answer. I think we'd know the answer on it, and I'm loath to use referenda except on what I regard as constitutional matters. You know, if you're not careful you can get to a point where everything is done by referenda. I personally am a believer in referenda, but I think we should try to confine them initially to constitutional matters. And I do assure you that most people, I think, take the same view as I do about the referendum. I think we all know that the overwhelming majority of our people would prefer the restoration of capital punishment. Er, all referenda in fact are advisory, and it then comes back to Members of Parliament to decide in the light of the referendum. So I must be candid with you. I have no plans for one at the moment.
Gordon Burns
All right, let's move into another question. A gentleman there with glasses. Would you like to put your question?
Questioner
[speaking with Asian accent] Mrs Thatcher, in you're manifesto you say that you're going to stop letting male fiancés into the country. I presume that you'll still allow the female fiancés in. Won't this cause an inbalance in the Asian community and shouldn't the law apply equally to men and women? [end p5]
MT
Well, I hope it won't. After all, I understand that the custom in the Asian community in their countries from which they came, was not for the man to go to his wife's house, but for the girl to go to the husband's house. That I believe is their custom …
Questioner
But …
MT
Well, I am told, I understand it is their custom, and I must …
Questioner
But can I …
MT
Yes, of course.
Questioner
Um, girls growing up in this country … it is hardly unlikely [sic] for her to go back to India or Pakistan or wherever they come from.
MT
Indeed, that I accept. But, you know, there are a lot of Asian people in this country now, and surely, surely they could find someone in this country. And I must be, again, absolutely frank with you: yes, we are going to stop male fiancés coming in, except in urgent compassionate cases. There is always grounds in any policy for an exception for urgent compassionate cases, but there are a lot of male fiancés coming in now, far more into the Asian and our immigrant community than into the rest of the population. As you know, some of them when they come not only come themselves but they bring large numbers of dependants with them, and that of course can start off a lot … [words drowned in applause]. Please come back, please come back.
Gordon Burns
For the last time, as there are so many hands up.
Questioner
So what you're telling me now is that you'd still leave the thing open? There is a compassionate, er …
MT
There is always, but please don't think that that applies to hundreds and thousands. It doesn't. There is always grounds for compassionate exceptions, and I have had cases, and I am always, where there is a genuine case, I'm always the strongest person to argue for it. But please don't misunderstand me. In general, male fiancés to the immigrant community will not be allowed, so you might not like the answer, but I don't vary my answer according to the person who asks the question [applause]. [end p6]
Gordon Burns
Let's just venture up towards the back of the hall. Slightly to the right there's a young lady with her left hand up in a pink blouse who's just put her hand down. Would you like to put your question? Just one second while the microphone's with you.
Questioner
If you get in Mrs Thatcher, what will you do for a person working a forty hour week with two or three children whose take-home pay is fifty pounds or less, when you can get the same amount or more on social security?
MT
Well, I think you've put your finger on one of the problems. As I've said, there are times when it doesn't pay to work, and one of the reasons why is because the tax is so heavy on low-band incomes, very heavy, much too heavy. So, if we lift the tax on the earned incomes, then in fact they will be left with more in their pockets than now. But there is another thing. I hear of cases—I hope there are not too many—where people are sent from a job centre for a job and this is what happens. They go with their card and they're only too pleased, to put it mildly, if unsuitable is put on their card and sent back to the job centre [applause]. That really isn't good enough. All of us who are hard workers are perfectly prepared to pay a reasonable slice of tax. We are prepared to pay enough to keep the education service going and the pensions and to look after our sick and disabled. But we reckon that anyone who is able to work and can get a job should take that job and work for his money and not take it from social security and will have to find another … [words drowned in applause].
Gordon Burns
Right, next question. Let us go to the lady in the centre with her left arm raised. Thank you.
Questioner
Mrs. Thatcher, would a Conservative Government reverse the Labour Government's law on education and allow local councils to select the education system which best suits their area and needs?
MT
Yes, it would. As you know, there was a new law passed by this Government compelling all local authorities to have only comprehensive schools. Now, I fought that bitterly, because I don't think we'll ever know enough about education only to have one kind of school, and to me what education means is providing schools so that the talent and ability is brought out of each and every child. And if we have got some children of the kind of ability that need to go to different schools, all right, you must provide the different schools for them. That Act will be repealed. Now, I do have—and I know you have some very distinguished schools in Bolton—I am a tremendous supporter of grammar schools. Not only that. Also of technical schools and of smaller schools, because I think a lot of parents would prefer their children to go to smaller schools. Nothing to do with grammar schools, but smaller schools rather than very large schools. And I think we should have a variety of schools. But I also think it was absolutely wrong to do away with our grammar schools. They're totally free. You get [end p7] there for one reason and one reason only. But each child could get there by virtue of his or her own ability. They gave children a chance of a very good education. For many of us, like me, they were the ladder from the bottom to the top. For many of my political opponents, they were the ladder from the bottom to the top, and I cannot see why they are now so anxious to kick away that ladder from others [applause].
Gordon Burns
We have, actually, less than a minute, so it's a quick question and a fairly quick answer. Um, let us go to the gentleman sitting at the very end there on the right, yes—no, just behind him, yes.
Questioner
Could I ask Mrs Thatcher why the Tory party voted against the setting up of the Price Commission and why they were against price controls?
MT
Because during the period we've had a Price Commission and price control, prices have never risen faster in this country. We had a Price Commission for several years. During the last five years prices have more than doubled. So the answer is not in Price Commission control. I'll tell you. Every housewife knows what tries to keep prices down. It's competition between shops. That's the best keeper of prices down that there is [applause].
Gordon Burns
Right, thank you. Our time is now up for putting questions to Mrs Thatcher. In a couple of minutes time, you can put your questions to the Prime Minister, but for now we'd like to thank you, Mrs Thatcher, for coming along and joining us today. Thank you very much.