COMMONWEALTH HEADS OF GOVERNMENT MEETING
Q1. Mr. Ian Lloyd
asked the Prime Minister when he expects to reply to the letter from the hon. Member for Havant and Waterloo setting out reasons why Her Majesty The Queen should not attend the [column 199]Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in Zambia.
The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan)
I replied to the hon. Member on 3rd November.
Mr. Lloyd
Since the Prime Minister in that reply—for which I thank him—said that all relevant factors would be taken into consideration, will he give the House a categorical assurance that Her Majesty will not be advised to visit Zambia unless, first, her personal safety can be completely assured and, second, that if she should visit Zambia that will in no way be taken to imply approval by the British people for the terrorism that that country has so regrettably and hospitably fostered within its boundaries?
The Prime Minister
On the first question, of course the personal safety of Her Majesty would be the prime consideration of those who advise her. As the hon. Member will understand, that advice would come not only from Her Majesty's Ministers here, who take a principal role in it; it could also come from other members of the Commonwealth where she is Queen. As regards the second part of the question, I do not accept what the hon. Gentleman said about the nature of the Zambian Government. President Kaunda has made his position quite clear on these matters. I do wish sometimes that the hon. Member would try to support his efforts in those directions and not attack them.
Mr. David Steel
The Prime Minister will know that the Commonwealth Secretariat expressed some concern about the findings of the Bingham report. Since this matter may come up at the meeting, whether it is held in Zambia or not, when will the right hon. Gentleman be able to tell the House about the Government's decisions, following the debates in the two Houses last week?
The Prime Minister
I hope, in the near future. I read the report of the debate in another place, which I found very valuable too, and the Cabinet had a preliminary consideration last Thursday. I trust that we shall have further consideration this coming week, and perhaps we can announce a decision soon after that. But if we cannot, it will be [column 200]only because we still have problems to sort out.
Mr. Faulds
As some members of the Opposition seem to support the activities of Smith in attacking Zambia, is it not they who endanger the Queen's safety when she visits that country?
The Prime Minister
There is no prospect yet that Her Majesty is in any personal danger at all and any decision that has to be taken will be taken well before next August, if that is the date, as seems likely, when the Commonwealth conference is to be held. As regards those who are responsible for the present situation in Zambia, that will be a matter of continuing debate, but I have no doubt that if the six principles which have been laid down for bringing Rhodesia to majority rule were accepted by all concerned and elections held, there would be no difficulty about anybody visiting Zambia, whoever they may be.
PRIME MINISTER
(ENGAGEMENTS)
Q2. Mr. Terry Walker
asked the Prime Minister if he will list his public engagements for 14th November.
The Prime Minister
This morning I accompanied Her Majesty The Queen when she greeted President Eanes of Portugal at the beginning of his State visit to this country.
In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be holding meetings with ministerial colleagues and others, including one with the leader of the opposition in the Lok Sabha. Mr. C. M. Stephen, and the former Prime Minister of India, Mrs. Gandhi.
This evening I hope to attend a dinner given by The Queen in honour of President Eanes.
Mr. Walker
I am glad that my right hon. Friend was able to meet the President of Portugal, because Portugal is one of the countries which has a current application to join the Common Market. Perhaps he would make to the President of Portugal the points that he made in his Guildhall speech last night about the shortcomings of the financial structure of the Common Market, and particularly its system of agricultural support.
[column 201]The Prime Minister
Yes, Sir. I daresay that the President will wish to discuss with me the prospects for his application, which I believe is now proceeding satisfactorily. As I said at the Guildhall last night, it is clear that what is needed is a broad balance between all the interests of the members of the Community if its long-term objectives are to be fulfilled, and not the unbalance that exists today.
Mrs. Thatcher
Will James Callaghanthe Prime Minister today take time to explain to the typical home buyer, who is faced with a bill of £16 a month for mortgage rate increases, why the Prime Minister's own Government have a worse record for mortgage rates than any previous British Government?
The Prime Minister
I think that the increase is £16 before tax deductions, so the figure is lower than that suggested by the right hon. Lady. The Leader of the Opposition is taking the first opportunity that she has had to claim that the mortgage rate today is higher than it was when she left office in 1974. I am not surprised that she has taken that opportunity.
The plain truth is that the British people would prefer to see inflation conquered whatever short-term steps are necessary. This is one of the steps that we intend to take in order to achieve that.
Mrs. Thatcher
Has the Prime Minister forgotten that under one of his own previous rulings the mortgage rate went up to 12½ per cent. in 1976? Therefore, he has held the worst record on two occasions. Will he explain how an increase of nearly £16 a month less tax helps the home buyer in his personal battle against inflation?
The Prime Minister
It does not help the personal home buyer at all. But, as the right hon. Lady might acknowledge at some time, all of us are part of the national interest. It is in the national interest that these rates are increased so that inflation is kept under control. Perhaps the Leader of the Opposition will explain to the country how she would keep inflation under control if she did not adopt these methods.
Mr. Alan Lee Williams
Will my right hon. Friend agree to consider what he said in the City of London last night with [column 202]a view to appointing a Minister for Europe, not only to co-ordinate the activities of Ministers and officials in Brussels but to explain to the British people some of the advantages and some of the disadvantages of our membership of the Common Market?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend has always taken an enlightened view of these matters.
Mr. Skinner
There are only six supporters left.
The Prime Minister
If there are only six left, I am one of them.
Mr. Skinner
The Prime Minister might regret saying that.
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) certainly knows about regretting things that are said.
As I said in my speech at the Guildhall last night, there is no doubt that there is a balance of advantage to be drawn from membership of the Common Market. This balance is certainly on the plus side in respect of political co-operation and certain of the decisions that have been taken on steel, textiles and other matters. I doubt whether we could have taken them on our own. However—and I do not wish to be used by the antimarketeers on this matter—that does not destroy the need for getting a proper balance in the financial contributions that we are making.
Mr. Gow
Is it not clear from the answer that the Prime Minister gave to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition that the increase in the mortgage rate is due exclusively to the excessive borrowing by this Government? Should not the Prime Minister admit frankly that his Government's borrowing policies have led to the increase in the mortgage rate?
The Prime Minister
No. That is certainly untrue. The borrowing requirement of this Government is not out of line with the borrowing requirement of other similar Governments and is, indeed, far lower than that of a number of comparable countries. The borrowing requirement is not doing this. There are a number of factors which the Chancellor of the Exchequer enunciated at great [column 203]length last week. This was to the satisfaction of the House because we had a majority at the end of the day on the Queen's Speech.
CBI
Q3. Mr. Mike Thomas
asked the Prime Minister when he last met representatives of the CBI.
The Prime Minister
I meet representatives of the CBI from time to time, at NEDC and on other occasions. Further meetings will be arranged as necessary.
Mr. Thomas
As it is now clear that the Opposition's statements are designed to encourage employers and industry generally to sabotage the Government's economic policy, can the Prime Minister make it clear what he expects from the CBI, industrialists and employers in order to support the incomes policy?
The Prime Minister
I certainly agree that the CBI in its public statements on this matter have been much more responsible than some sections of the Opposition. I hope that the CBI will take the White Paper on incomes policy “Winning the Battle Against Inflation” fully into account when advising its members.
Mr. Pardoe
When the Prime Minister meets the CBI will he ask exactly how it proposes to increase production with the 12½ per cent. minimum lending rate? Will he say exactly what is the difference between his addiction to the nonsense of monetarism and that of the Leader of the Opposition? Is not the 12½ per cent. the price that we are all having to pay for the failure of successive Conservative and Labour Governments to arrive at a sensible wage bargaining system?
The Prime Minister
The present Government at least can be exonerated from that charge. We are doing our best to arrive at a sensible wage bargaining system. I trust that the statement that the TUC, in conjunction with the Government, will be issuing later today will demonstrate that.
Mr. Madden
I accept that the Prime Minister's comments last night on the Common Market enjoyed widespread support, but will he take this opportunity to tell the CBI and others that Britain's [column 204]involvement with the European monetary system is now a dead duck? Will he also say that, unless there is radical and substantial reform of the Common Market, Britain's departure from the Common Market must be a real possibility?
The Prime Minister
It is far better that we should try to make the necessary reforms in the European Community than that we should talk about leaving it at this stage. There are substantial disadvantages in leaving.
As the House knows, I raised the matter at Bremen on 6th July. As a result of that the paper has been prepared and certain deductions are now being made. It will be considered by the Finance Ministers of the Community on 20th November. I shall, of course, carry the matter forward as far as I can at the next meeting of Heads of Government early in December.
Mr. Adley
Does the Prime Minister recall that the CBI, among other things, called for the Government to consider legislating on the creation of a system of balloting before strikes? In view of the recent situation at Vauxhall, and as the bread workers' strike is taking place at a time when between 65 per cent. and 70 per cent. of supplies are at a normal level, does he agree that there is a widespread consensus for the view? Is he aware that if he gave serious consideration to that suggestion he would almost certainly have the approval of the House and the grateful thanks of the nation?
The Prime Minister
I answered questions on this matter last week. I have nothing further to add today.
Mr. Jay
Is my right hon. Friend aware that the only way to achieve genuine reforms in the Common Market is to say that we shall leave it unless we achieve them?
The Prime Minister
I would not regard my right hon. Friend as the best adviser on that matter. I do not think that he has ever wanted to be a member of the Common Market, at any price.
PRIME MINISTER
(ENGAGEMENTS)
Q4. Mr. Andrew MacKay
asked the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for 14th November.
[column 205]The Prime Minister
I refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave earlier today to my hon. Friend the Member for Kingswood (Mr. Walker).
Mr. MacKay
Is the Prime Minister aware that during this year mortgage repayments have risen by a record 37 per cent.? Will he confirm to hardpressed housebuyers and owners that this is almost entirely due to his Government's incompetent handling of the economy?
The Prime Minister
I do not think that the country takes that view because, as the hon. Gentleman may know from his own personal experience, more building society loans are being made today than ever before. They are at a record level. That seems to show that many people are still in the field for buying houses.
Mr. Buchan
When my right hon. Friend meets the President of Portugal today, will he inform him that those of us who warned about the Common Market have been proved right, both by the general experience of our people and now by the figures—and I am including among us my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay)? On the analogy of a previous Government, who appointed a Minister for disarmament who later ended up selling armaments, may I recommend to my right hon. Friend that he appoint a Minister for Europe who might end up by getting us out of Europe?
The Prime Minister
I do not accept what my hon. Friend has said on this matter. The necessity for Europe is a closer combination and not to split up. It would undoubtedly create a tremendous furore among the European nations if a major member were possibly to consider leaving. I do not believe that we should do that. We have had a referendum on the subject with a positive result, and some of my right hon. and hon. Friends would be helping more if they would apply some constructive criticism towards getting a proper balance between payments that are made and the receipts that are given to each individual member country.