GOVERNMENT POLICY
(FORMULATION)
Q1. Mr. Warren
asked the Prime Minister if he will reissue his instructions to Ministers and civil servants to release as many background papers as possible concerning the formulation of Her Majesty's Government policy.
The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan)
A growing number of background papers are now being issued concerning the formulation of Government policy, and I can reassure the hon. Gentleman that as all Ministers are actively concerned to make this matter a success, there is no need for me to issue any fresh guidance.
[column 930]Mr. Warren
Does not the right hon. Gentleman feel that he should have the honesty to issue more information, so that the public can see why his policies on prices, unemployment and defence have been so disastrous and why he is systematically destroying the aspirations of the British people?
The Prime Minister
I had assumed that the hon. Member was seriously concerned about this matter, so I gave him a serious reply. On the general issues that he raises, background papers are issued on all matters of Government policy where that is appropriate and where useful information can be conveyed.
Mr. Christopher Price
Is my right hon. Friend aware that, although all parties make obeisance to the idea of open government at all times, it has been very disappointing for some of us on the Back Benches that the Government have not been able to go further on this matter? Will he assure us that the present instructions to Ministers are not his last word on the subject and that when we all return with renewed vigour he will be able to look at this matter again and go a little further towards fulfilling the wording of our 1974 election manifesto?
The Prime Minister
I know that my hon. Friend and others are disappointed about this, and I should obviously like to satisfy them if I could, but if he looks at the list of papers that I published in Hansard on 18th May in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton), which covered several columns, he will see the kind of material that has been published. I asked again about this matter this morning. I find, for example, that a large number of foreign policy papers has been published, as well as background briefs on Euro-Communism, on the Anglo-American proposals, on MBFR from the Soviet viewpoint, by the Ministry of Defence on the location of the tankers at Fairford and by the DHSS on the repayment of supplementary benefits, with 40 published background notes. I think that the Government have lived up to their undertakings to publish more information. Although we have not gone as far as the manifesto commitment, which would mean a whole change in the area and ambit of Government responsibilities, I think that we [column 931]should be given credit for what we have done.
Mr. Tebbit
Yes, but the Prime Minister is responsible for a number of confidential documents, some of which might well be released before he goes off to his well-earned rest on his country estate in Sussex. Will he consider releasing some of the documents which he has no doubt handled concerning the decision that he has to make over whether to give his full-hearted endorsement to the Labour candidate at Dundee, East, who was three times a Communist Party candidate and who, what is more, left the party only eight months ago but has not left his convictions behind him?
Mr. Speaker
Order. The Prime Minister may be questioned only on matters for which he is responsible, and I understand from an answer which he gave on Tuesday that he is not responsible for the choice of candidates.
PRIME MINISTER
(ENGAGEMENTS)
Q2. Mr. Adley
asked the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for 3rd August.
The Prime Minister
In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be holding meetings with ministerial colleagues and others.
Mr. Adley
I recognise the integrity of the Prime Minister's endeavours, but, with reference to his official activities, since this may be his last appearance at the Dispatch Box, will he find time now to tell us which of his political achievements in his official capacity he thinks has been of most benefit to the nation? Was it when he was Home Secretary and gerrymandered the parliamentary boundaries or destroyed “In Place of Strife” ? Was it when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer in 1968 and helped to create the economic collapse and devalued the pound? Or is it now when, as Prime Minister, he has created record unemployment?
The Prime Minister
I think that the time has not yet come for me to write my autobiography. There will be plenty of time left for that in due course. However, at this interim stage in my early [column 932]career—remembering, as I do, that Mr. Gladstone formed his last Administration at the age of 83, and I hope to emulate him in being the only other Prime Minister, apart from Lloyd George, to address the Welsh Eisteddfod in Cardiff on Sunday, so we have more than one thing in common—if I were asked such a question, I should like to think that perhaps the best service that I have rendered to the country has been in trying to rescue it from the ungovernable position in which it seemed to be left by the Conservative Party, in trying to create a sense of common endeavour and consensus between both sides of industry, and in overcoming the rate of inflation which was wished upon us by the Conservative Party.
Mr. Skinner
As part of my official engagements on Tuesday, I was listening to my right hon. Friend answering Questions, and I heard a lot of comment from the Opposition Benches about the need to get rid of quangos. As part of his duties in the next Session, will my right hon. Friend take due account of that matter and get rid of the biggest quango of all—possibly without the support of the Tory Opposition—namely, the undemocratic House of Lords?
The Prime Minister
I am sure that my hon. Friend will not misunderstand me when I say that I am glad to see him restored to his usual rude state of health—and long may he continue in that way. As for the abolition of the House of Lords, this has been an aspiration of many of us for very many years. I am glad to say that it has been the policy of my party for many years. Because of the constitutional difficulties which I have seen in getting certain Bills through, it has not been possible yet to achieve it, but we must always strive onwards and upwards.
Mrs. Thatcher
Did I understand from James Callaghanthe Prime Minister that it is his aspiration also to get rid of the House of Lords. Does he likewise share the aspiration of his party to do without a second Chamber altogether?
The Prime Minister
I am glad that the right hon. Lady raises that question. I have never found any legitimate authority whatever for an undemocratic, unelected Chamber in this country, and I am astonished that the right hon. [column 933]Lady should seek to defend it. That is not the basis of democracy about which she prates so much. As to a second Chamber, that is a different question. There are many examples in democratic societies of second Chambers which are elected, but I know of no one, save the reactionary Conservative Party, who would defend an unelected House of Lords.
Mrs. Dunwoody
Will my right hon. Friend find a moment today to look carefully at the business of bringing in some control by the House of Commons over EEC legislation so that, when we return in the autumn, the Government will be prepared to propose some mechanism which will enable us to look far more closely at EEC documents before they are passed?
The Prime Minister
There was a long discussion on this matter during the debate on the Adjournment motion on Tuesday, when the Lord President gave, I thought, a very satisfactory reply. He said that the Government wished to consider what further measures could be brought in, in conjunction with the Scrutiny Committee and discussion with the right hon. Member for Bourne-mouth, West (Sir. J. Eden). We shall continue to consider whether a resolution can be brought forward in the autumn which will not unduly fetter Ministers, enabling them to carry out their negotiating responsibilities, but will give the House of Commons adequate control, too.
Mr. Fairbairn
Could the Prime Minister find a moment or two today to put down on a scrap of paper, placing it in the Library, those successes, however trivial, which his Government have had for which he has not claimed the credit and those disasters, however abominable, which they have created but which he has not blamed on forces outside his control?
The Prime Minister
I shall consider that proposal. If the House would wish it, I can take a minute or so now to state some of them. For example, the minimum lending rate is 2½ per cent. below the level when the hon. and learned Gentleman's Government were in office. Mortgage interest rates at 9¾ per cent. are 1¼ per cent. below what they were when the Tory Government left office. [column 934]
There is now a balance of payments surplus, and when they left office there was a deficit. I am glad to say that the rate of inflation has halved from the time when they were in office and is now 7.4 per cent. against about 13 per cent. when the Tories left office.
If the hon. and learned Gentleman would wish it, I could go on with a whole list of matters, but I shall spare his embarrassment by pointing out in conclusion that living standards are rising at a substantial rate.
TUC AND CBI
Q3. Mr. Molloy
asked the Prime Minister when next he will meet the Trades Union Congress and the Confederation of British Industry.
The Prime Minister
I met representatives of the TUC general council on 18th July and of the CBI on 19th July. Further meetings will be arranged as necessary.
Mr. Molloy
Since we are coming towards the end of the Session, could my right hon. Friend give the House a brief resume of the Government's achievements, notably in dealing with inflation? It need be only a resume because of the limitations of Question Time. Could he give us also some idea of how he believes that we shall continue to make that progress and achieve much more when he makes a similar report 12 months hence?
The Prime Minister
I can report that over the past 12 months, as over the past four years, there has been progress in controlling inflation. As I said in reply to supplementary questions on the previous Question, it is lower now than it was when the Conservative Government were in office. As for a comparison with last year, it is down from last year's level of 17 per cent. and is now 7.4 per cent. So that shows progress. Undoubtedly a lot of it is due to the great restraint shown by the trade union movement and by all workers and others in this country during the last 12 months. This has resulted in greater stability for the pound; sterling today is higher than it was 12 months ago in terms both of its value against the dollar and against the [column 935]effective rates of other countries. All these things have been achieved by the united efforts of the British people. I intend that they shall continue.
Mr. Montgomery
No doubt when the Prime Minister meets the CBI and the TUC he will talk about the vexed problem of unemployment. Will he point out to those bodies that under Labour almost 190 firms have gone either bankrupt or into liquidation for every working day of this Administration? Is not that a terrible indictment, and is it not enough to shake even the Prime Minister's complacency?
The Prime Minister
I find myself a little astonished. I thought that one of the consequences of a free market was that firms should be free to go bankrupt if they did not succeed. That is the whole ethos of Conservative policy. If we are now to be reproached for allowing firms to go bankrupt, presumably we shall need more Government subsidies and grants to keep them afloat. I have seen some strange twists in Conservative Party policy, but that is one of the strangest.
Mr. Urwin
When my right hon. Friend meets the TUC and the CBI, will he raise with them the vital importance of reaching an understanding on the basis of a form of industrial democracy upon which the next government can legislate?
The Prime Minister
Yes, Sir. The White Paper issued by the Government is one of the important issues that will form the basis of legislation in the next Session. We intend to bring it forward, and work is proceeding on it now. The TUC is not wholly united behind it, and no more is the CBI, I am sorry to say. This is where the Government must choose. I believe that the path forward that we have chosen will not only introduce greater industrial democracy but will bring greater industrial peace to this country and ensure that the efforts of both sides are bent on getting the maximum amount of productivity, which is what the country needs.
Mr. Beith
Does the Prime Minister recognise that the TUC and the CBI are among many outside bodies which have a legitimate interest in ensuring that this House can scrutinise legislation and the [column 936]work of government more effectively? Will he discuss with them and many others the proposals of the Committee of this House which has already reported—the report is being published now—to make the House a more effective democratic body?
The Prime Minister
I understand that the report of the Select Committee on Procedure came out one minute ago. I have not had the opportunity of reading it, but I am sure that it will make light holiday reading for all of us. Having considered it, we can consider what steps should be taken next Session to see what proposals should be put into effect.
Several Hon Members
rose——
Mr. Speaker
I propose to call one more hon. Member from each side of the House. I hope that the Prime Minister will be patient, because we are going over time.
Mr. Henderson
Is the Prime Minister aware that many trade unionists in Scotland will be surprised that he has not taken the opportunity today to announce the date of the referendum on the Scotland Bill and that he is dragging his feet on the issue? Is he further aware that if he believes that by spinning it out he can rely upon the support of my hon. Friends and myself to sustain him in office he is gravely mistaken?
The Prime Minister
I do not think that anyone, trade unionist or not, will be surprised, because I answered the hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mrs. Bain) on Tuesday in the hon. Gentleman's absence on this matter. I said that we would bring forward proposals, I hoped, when we returned for the new Session in November. So there is no occasion for surprise. If I had to rely on the SNP for support, I would run tomorrow.
Mr. Heffer
May I ask my right hon. Friend a practical question? Has he received the letter from Councillor Arnold Tweedale, of the North-West Industrial Development Association, about the future of the microelectronics processing plant? Are the Government sympathetic to having it in the north-west, in particular on Merseyside, which would give us at least 4,500 badly needed jobs?
[column 937]The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend has been most assiduous in pursuing the prospects for greater prosperity in Merseyside. Everyone should be aware of this.
As regards the microprocessing and microcircuitry industry, I am told by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry that many cities and towns have written asking for this new and exciting venture to be put into their areas. All these requests will have to be considered, so I cannot give a definite undertaking today.