PRIME MINISTER
(ENGAGEMENTS)
Q1. Mr. Terry Walker
asked the Prime Minister if he will list his public engagements for 29th June.
The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan)
This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be holding further meetings with ministerial colleagues and others.
Mr. Walker
Will my right hon. Friend find time in a very busy day to reflect further on the talks that he had earlier in the week with American aircraft manufacturers? Does he appreciate that all those who want to see the development of the British aircraft manufacturing industry will be very pleased that he had those talks? Will he consider making a statement about his talks with the McDonnell Douglas Company, because it is very important that we hear the offer being made to Britain by the Americans?
The Prime Minister
I am obliged to my hon. Friend. The talks were valuable, certainly to me, and they revealed that there is a very big and rapidly growing market for air transport, especially in the United States. We shall have some difficult decisions to take as between the three corporations that we have, and certainly the facts must be laid before the House. I understand that my hon. Friend has the opportunity of a debate quite soon. If he chose this subject, I—and I am sure this applies to the Ministers concerned—would welcome it.
Mrs. Thatcher
Will James Callaghanthe Prime Minister say whether his Government have finally made up their minds about their Budget and, if so, exactly what changes [column 1568]they propose? Is not the only firmness shown so far his support for policies of high taxation and his determination to persist with a levy that will put a tax on exports, a tax on jobs, and a tax on food?
The Prime Minister
We made up our minds about the Budget in April. Unfortunately, we could not carry the House wholly with us on every proposal. However, if the right hon. Lady is now repenting of her vote and wishes to go back to the position that we announced in April, I shall be very happy to do that. As for the rest, I must say that it is very odd to say that we are in favour of high taxation, considering that over the last two Budgets we have reduced it steadily.
Mrs. Thatcher
Does the Prime Minister remember saying from that Dispatch Box a few weeks ago that the tax changes that the Opposition had chosen would reduce unemployment, whereas the tax changes that he had chosen will increase unemployment? Why does he persist in policies that increase unemployment, one of which is tax and the other defence policy, which has already cut jobs by 180,000?
The Prime Minister
As I have answered the right hon. Lady's first question, I quite understand her now moving on to another and entirely different one. I dare say that if she goes on biting for the entire 15 minutes of Prime Minister's Questions, she will score a scratch somewhere. The Government's economic policy is well understood in the country, and it is meeting with increasing satisfaction there.
Mr. Freud
In his busy schedule will the Prime Minister find time to visit the Cafeteria, where the loyal and unhappy staff have been ordered by their unions to strike, which does little credit to the House of Commons in general? Will he consider opening the catering facilities of No. 10 Downing Street to right hon. and hon. Members who are deprived of catering?
The Prime Minister
I cannot say that I entirely recommend the second proposal. Hon. Members might find themselves a little hungry now and again. On the catering facilities generally, I have no comment to make, as I have not studied the matter. I am sure that the Lord President will make a statement if necessary.
[column 1569]Mr. Jay
To be fair, are not the efforts of the Tory Opposition to unbalance the Budget this summer entirely consistent with their profligate financial policies of 1972–73?
The Prime Minister
Yes, but the Opposition show no signs of recalling that or learning from that, as is shown by their attitude to wage increases and to industrial relations generally.
TUC AND CBI
Q2. Mr. Noble
asked the Prime Minister when he expects next to meet the TUC and CBI.
The Prime Minister
I met representatives of the TUC and CBI when I took the chair at a meeting of the NEDC on 1st February. Further meetings will be arranged as necessary.
Mr. Noble
When my right hon. Friend next meets the TUC and the CBI will he remind them that the scale of tax cuts proposed by the Opposition could be achieved only through cuts in public expenditure, which would be damaging to industry, to the regions and particularly to the lower-paid? Will he also remind them that their chances of consultation on these matters would be very remote if the Opposition were in power, in view of the fact that the former Shadow Foreign Secretary has indicated that the Leader of the Opposition refused to consult him on foreign affairs? Is that not indicative of the contempt in which she holds everyone who happens to disagree with her?
The Prime Minister
I do not wish to comment on the internal relationships on the Conservative Front Bench, past or present. There are too many painful sores there.
On the general position, the country will have to make up its mind how far it believes that cuts in taxation, which would have a damaging effect on employment throughout the country, would be worth while. We take the view that if there is a choice betwen tax cuts for the better-off and jobs for those who are out of work, we choose the second.
Mr. Cormack
Before the Prime Minister next meets the TUC and CBI will he reflect that it is now nine years since [column 1570]he sabotaged “In Place of Strife” ? In those nine years the purchasing power of the pound has fallen by 65p and there are another 800,000 people out of work. Does he think that the price that the country has had to pay for him as leader is worth it?
The Prime Minister
The answer to the last part of the question is definitely “Yes” .
Q3. Mr. Wrigglesworth
asked the Prime Minister when he expects next to meet the TUC and CBI.
The Prime Minister
I refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I have just given to my hon. Friend the Member for Rossendale (Mr. Noble).
Mr. Wrigglesworth
Will the Prime Minister discuss with the TUC and the CBI the development of the Government's regional policies? In the Northern Region we have once again the highest level of unemployment in the country, excluding Northern Ireland. Is he aware that on Teesside, despite the highest levels of investment and productivity, there is still severe unemployment? Will he consider carefully the suggestion of the Cleveland County Council and the North of England Development Corporation for the introduction of selective assistance to employment intensive industries and for help to service industries in the northern area?
The Prime Minister
I am aware that the North-East has suffered particularly, because of the structural decline in industries such as coal, steel and shipbuilding. Opportunities for the expansion of service industries should be considered. I believe that the Minister of State, Department of Industry met the Cleveland County Council recently, and he has written the council a long reply in response to its representation. Perhaps I could ask my hon. Friend to study that reply.
Mr. Gow
When the Prime Minister next meets the TUC will he remind trade union leaders of his own words when he said that he would find it “intolerable and not at all acceptable” that people should lose their jobs because of their political opinions? How does he reconcile that advice with the dismissal by British Rail, without compensation, of 42 [column 1571]employees, two of whom have 39 years of faultless service?
The Prime Minister
I am not aware of this. Is the hon. Member referring to new dismissals, or is this an old issue?
Mr. Gow
Forty employees who had been employed when the closed shop came in were dismissed, and two were dismissed when they resigned from the union after the closed shop agreement came in.
The Prime Minister
This issue has been debated on numerous occasions. It does not alter my general view that people should not be dismissed for their political opinions. However, I am not going into a particular dispute on this matter, any more than I shall do on any others.
PRIME MINISTER
(ENGAGEMENTS)
Q4. Mr. Canavan
asked the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for 29th June.
The Prime Minister
I refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave earlier today to my hon. Friend the Member for Kingswood (Mr. Walker).
Mr. Canavan
Will the Prime Minister find time today to give an assurance that the Government will do everything possible next week to repair the damage done to the Scotland Bill by the House of Lords? Does he agree that one of the many advantages of the Scottish Assembly will be that devolved legislation will not have to go through the House of Lords, where many a good Bill has been wrecked beyond recognition by a crowd of political vandals and hooligans?
The Prime Minister
I can promise my hon. Friend and the House as a whole that the Government intend to ensure as far as possible that the Scotland Bill will be on the statute book by the end of the current Session. The House of Lords has behaved irresponsibly in a number of matters, but I look to the House of Commons to put them right.
Mr. Tebbit
On an earlier question the Prime Minister made the silly statement that Tory tax cuts benefited only the rich and would not do any good for [column 1572]the men and women who were out of jobs. If that is so, why is he on the record as saying on 8th June in column 366 of Hansard “The Tory tax cuts will reduce unemployment” ? When was he right and when was he wrong?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Member has quoted me incorrectly. I said that if it was a choice between tax cuts and—
Mr. Tebbit
No.
The Prime Minister
It is no use the hon. Member shouting “No” . I know what I said. I said that if it was a choice between tax cuts and seeking jobs we would choose jobs. I do not know what the hon. Member would do, but that is our attitude. Of course it is true that there would have been a small reduction in unemployment as a result of tax cuts, but if we had been able to stick to our original Budget there would have been no change at all and unemployment would have fallen further.
Mr. Heffer
On the matter of silly statements, does the Prime Minister agree that statements from the Conservative Front Bench, particularly in speeches in the country, are becoming increasingly silly every day? Does he further agree that we have had a speech by the hon. Member for Abingdon (Mr. Neave) which suggested that we on the Government side of the House are Nazis, and we have had speeches by the Leader of the Opposition suggesting that we are trying to bring about an East European State? Does he agree that the silliest speech of all was by the right hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe), who wants to set up some sort of spiv outfit in the inner cities?
The Prime Minister
I am not sure whether the most dangerous speech has not been the one in which the Leader of the Opposition promised free collective bargaining for private industry but suggested that public industries should be kept within some sort of cash limits. If she really does not understand the degree of comparability between skilled workers in public industry and those in private industries I am sure that if she ever has any responsibility, she has a wonderful disillusionment coming.
Mr. Churchill
Will the Prime Minister earn his award for statesmanship by [column 1573]repudiating the harebrained suggestion of his Foreign Secretary that the multi-racial security forces of Rhodesia should be stood down and replaced by the terrorist thugs of Mr. Mugabe, who continue to slaughter black and white civilians alike in Africa? Is it still the Government's policy that they should go ahead along those lines?
The Prime Minister
Yes, Sir. There is no change in the policy. It is important that those who are engaged in fighting outside the country and who at the same time are members of that country should be brought into reconciliation with the forces that exist inside the country. There will be no long-term peace in Rhodesia until that is achieved. That is the situation which the country must follow up. I hope that the Opposition will give some support to the idea of getting the two groups together if blacks and whites in Rhodesia are to have a future.