TUC
Q1. Mr. Mike Thomas
asked the Prime Minister when he last met the Trades Union Congress.
The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan)
I met representatives of the TUC on 28th February. Further meetings will be arranged as necessary.
Mr. Thomas
When my right hon. Friend next meets the TUC will he raise with it the question of industrial democracy? Will he draw to its attention the hypocrisy of the Leader of the Opposition in welcoming the proposals that my right hon. Friend put forward on 23rd May? Will he draw to the attention of the TUC the contrast between that bit of no doubt softened “Fairy Snow” image and the image portrayed by the hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Nott), who on Tuesday said that the Conservatives would emasculate the Bullock proposals and oppose any legislation?
[column 1174]The Prime Minister
There will be discussions taking place between the TUC and appropriate Ministers on the White Paper that the Government have issued. I regret that the Opposition seem to be taking a more negative attitude now than they did when the White Paper was first published, especially as I have noticed that some independent observers have gone on record since the publication of the White Paper saying that they thought that it formed a useful basis. We think that voluntary arrangements should be made, as far as possible, with a legislative fall-back.
Mrs. Thatcher
Is James Callaghanthe right hon. Gentleman aware that the TUC will be concerned at the threatened closure of the ICI plant on Teesside, with the possible loss of 8,000 jobs—this arising because the Company is not allowed to pay the kind of wages that would attract and keep skilled workers? Will the Prime Minister accept that his policy of depressed wages for skilled workers and high tax for all is leading directly to unemployment?
The Prime Minister
No, Sir, I will not accept anything of the sort. That is simply not true. The situation is that there has been a large increase in training for skilled men. I am glad to say that that has more than doubled since the right hon. Lady had any responsibility in the last Conservative Administration. We clearly need more training than we have. As to wage differentials, perhaps one day the right hon. Lady will recognise that there must be some reconciliation between overcoming inflation and a measure of holding back on wages. I do not know whether she accepts that. Perhaps she would like to make it clear.
Mrs. Thatcher
Will the Prime Minister now address his mind to the question? Eight thousand jobs may be lost because the company cannot pay enough to keep skilled workers and to attract more, yet there are training places vacant because the pay is not high enough to encourage people to take up these jobs. In the face of this loss, will the Prime Minister say whether the company can pay enough to keep skilled workers and attract more, or would the company be black listed if it did so?
[column 1175]The Prime Minister
I cannot reply to a question on an individual company. If the right hon. Lady wants a particular answer she should table a Question to the appropriate Minister. On the general question, I note that she is now departing from any proposals for having reasonable restraint on pay. In that case, I warn her that there will be a serious return to inflation. That is something that we have to balance. It is the responsibility of the Government—but, of course, not of the right hon. Lady—to try to get a proper balance between differentials and a restraint on pay. I sometimes wish that she would acknowledge that and recognise that this is a problem if inflation is to be kept down.
Mrs. Thatcher
Is the Prime Minister saying that he would rather have these workers unemployed than allow a flourishing, good company to make its own bargain with its own unions freely and without Government restraint?
The Prime Minister
No, of course I would not say anything of the sort, and the right hon. Lady understands that. What she will not acknowledge is that there is a relationship between the amount of wages paid and the level of inflation. It is the job of the Government to get this right, and we are getting it right. The right hon. Lady will no doubt pursue this point. We shall try in the next pay year to ensure that differentials have a rather better show than they have had this year. This year has been better than last year in that respect. But, overall, I should like to hear the right hon. Lady say one day that she regards the overcoming of inflation as the No. 1 priority of this country.
PRIME MINISTER
(ENGAGEMENTS)
Q2. Mr. Canavan
asked the Prime Minister what are his official engagements for 15th June.
The Prime Minister
This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be holding further meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. Later today President Ceausescu of Romania and I will be signing a joint statement at the end of our official talks. This evening [column 1176]I shall be the guest of the President at a dinner in honour of Her Majesty the Queen.
Mr. Canavan
Although he has a busy day, will my right hon. Friend find time to comment on last night's vote, when the separatist extremists in the Scottish National Party combined with the Unionist extremists in the Tory Party to try to defeat the Government? That defeat could have wrecked the Scottish Assembly. In view of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's description of the Shadow Chancellor as a dead sheep, does not this mean that the SNP is a crowd of political maggots living off the carcase of the Tory Party?
The Prime Minister
I am afraid that my rhetorical skills do not vie with either those of the Chancellor of the Exchequer or those of my hon. Friend the Member for West Stirlingshire (Mr. Canavan), but, looking ahead, what we can say is that now, in the light of last night's vote, there is a very good prospect that the devolution Bills will reach the statute book, and that therefore the Scottish people, as well as the Welsh people, will be able to declare themselves, through a referendum, on the subject of the Assembly. When they vote, they will know that there are no thanks due to the Scottish National Party.
Mr. Hugh Fraser
Referring to last night's debate, will the right hon. Gentleman take a few moments off in order to congratulate his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on his desperate efforts to restore confidence in the Government, and congratulate him even further on the fact that he has attempted to rig the gilt-edged market this morning by relaxing £640 million of special deposits?
The Prime Minister
This decision to extend the facilities in the market was taken not by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer but by the Bank of England, and is a technical adjustment made necessary by the great success in selling gilt-edged since my right hon. Friend announced the increase in minimum lending rate and other factors last week, including the corset.
As the right hon. Gentleman may or may not have noticed, this is a temporary relaxation because of the Government's [column 1177]and the Bank's success in selling gilts and it will be reintroduced in two weeks' time. I should have hoped the right hon. Gentleman would congratulate the Government on their great success.
Mr. Wrigglesworth
In view of the remarks made by the right hon. Lady, will my right hon. Friend suggest that she should consult some of the Teesside people affected by the troubles to which she referred? If she does so, she will find that there is no glib answer to this very difficult problem. Is my right hon. Friend aware that for every six instrument artificers trained by ICI at that plant, only one has been retained, and that these men have been going to Saudi Arabia, Norway and various other countries, where they are obtaining salaries of between £10,000 and £20,000, which could not be matched under any pay policy?
Is my right hon. Friend aware that his ministerial colleagues are doing their utmost to try to solve this problem, and that the intervention from the right hon. Lady will in no way help towards its solution?
The Prime Minister
I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Thornaby (Mr. Wrigglesworth), in whose constituency I believe the factory is situated—or at any rate a number of his constituents work in it—is very well informed about these matters. I do not know why he should assume, however, that the right hon. Lady wants to find an answer to the problem. She just wants to find a way of having a dig at the Government.
BRUSSELS
Q3. Mr. Marten
asked the Prime Minister when he next expects to visit Brussels.
The Prime Minister
I have no plans to visit Brussels before the meeting of the European Council, which will be held there towards the end of the year.
Mr. Marten
In view of the suffering which the closure of the Spanish frontier by the dictatorship of General Franco has caused to the people of Gibraltar, will the Prime Minister, when he goes to Brussels, make it a precondition of opening negotiations with the Spanish for entry into the Common Market—which I support—that they should open the [column 1178]frontier beforehand? Will he ask the Foreign Office to be a little less pussy-footed about it and a little more robust?
The Prime Minister
The opening of the frontier between Gibraltar and Spain is not a matter which is concerned with the entry of Spain into the European Economic Community; it arose long before the Spanish application for entry to the EEC. It is a matter on which I have made many protests to the Spanish Government. In my view—I have said so frequently—the frontier should be opened, quite irrespective of any application by Spain for membership of the Community. The Spanish Government know very well our views on the matter. In my view, the frontier should be opened tomorrow. The question has nothing at all to do with the Community.
Mrs. Castle
Is my right hon. Friend aware that even The Times newspaper has become alarmed at the scandal of rising meat prices in the EEC and the threat which the British housewife now faces to her supplies of less costly New Zealand meat, under the common agricultural policy? Will he go to Brussels and tell the Community that we have no intention of allowing it to force up the prices of New Zealand meat in this country in order to support less efficient French sheep farmers?
The Prime Minister
The Minister of Agriculture has made clear on more than one occasion, and as recently as 20th April, that one of the essential points which govern our attitude to proposals on marketing arrangements for mutton and lamb is that New Zealand's interest and that of our own housewives must be fully safeguarded. That is the Government's policy, and my right hon. Friend has been most vigorous in advancing it in Brussels.
Mr. Maurice Macmillan
Will the Prime Minister reconsider his firm refusal to take political action in the Council of Europe, particularly in relation to trying to get some sort of coherent policy towards the re-stabilisation of the situation in Africa? This is especially important, in view of the great community of interest between the European countries and the community of interest between the African countries and the members of the European Community.
[column 1179]The Prime Minister
Yes, there is a close identity of interests. Western interests have always been very strong in Africa, but it is the nature of those interests and the way in which they are expressed that is of importance. The Foreign Secretary had discussions with his Foreign Minister colleagues on this matter yesterday, and I think that they are coming to a common agreement on the policy that should be followed.
If in the first part of his question the right hon. Gentleman was referring back to Gibraltar, let me make it absolutely clear that I think that the House, in expressing itself in this way, will influence the attitude of the Spanish authorities. I do not object to pressure on this question, but I do not want to link it with the other issue. It is an issue which stands on its own. That border should be opened.
Q4. Mr. Mike Noble
asked the Prime Minister when he last met the Trades Union Congress.
The Prime Minister
I refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave earlier today to my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, East (Mr. Thomas).
Mr. Noble
When my right hon. Friend meets the TUC, will he discuss with it ways and means of ensuring that reluctant Tory local authorities take advantage of the steps recently taken to restore free school milk? Does my right hon. Friend not agree that this is a much better use of public funds than the tax cuts pushed through by the original milk-snatcher and her friends?
The Prime Minister
I saw the full page advertisement by the National Dairy Council in the newspaper this morning. I think it will have met with pretty general approval, at any rate on the Government side. I hope that Conservative local authorities will take it up. They can, at least for a year, get this milk for children between 7 and 11 at little or no extra cost to themselves. That at least should appeal to them.
Mr. Michael Latham
Are we to understand from the answer that the Prime Minister gave to the House last Tuesday that the Government's policy towards stage 4 of a possible incomes [column 1180]policy is to find out what trade unions want and then do it? Are the Government going to give any leadership at all?
The Prime Minister
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for advice on tactics, but perhaps he will be kind enough to leave it to me. I think the wisest thing is to hear what the annual conferences of the unions have to say about these matters. For example, an interesting resolution on the subject was passed at NALGO yesterday. I think that we had better weigh up the attitudes and reach our conclusions, but I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will be disappointed whatever we do.