NORTH ATLANTIC COUNCIL
Q1. Mr. George Rodgers
asked the Prime Minister when he next expects to attend a meeting of the North Atlantic Council.
[column 1206]The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan)
I expect to attend the meeting of the North Atlantic Council in Washington on 30th and 31st May.
Mr. Rodgers
If my right hon. Friend attends such a meeting, will he convey the revulsion of ordinary decent people in this country at the suggestion that the neutron or enriched radiation bomb should become part of the armoury of NATO? Will he advocate that this gruesome weapon, which apparently has the capacity to destroy people yet leave property intact, should be outlawed and denounced by both Western and Eastern power blocs?
The Prime Minister
The neutron bomb is a weapon fearful in its use, but it is no more fearful than a number of weapons now being developed by the Soviet Union, including, for example, the SS20. Therefore, I do not think that we should tackle this matter from the point of view of a single weapon. It is important that the world Disarmament Conference, which is to assemble at the United Nations in New York, should take a broad view of the whole of this problem. I propose to attend that conference on 2nd June and to make a speech on the need for disarmament and on the manner in which it should be tackled.
Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles
When the Prime Minister meets his NATO colleagues, will he feel able to speak with pride about Britain's Armed Forces? [Hon. Members: “Yes.” ] If so, will he take his miserable little Secretary of State by the scruff of the neck—[Hon. Members: “Withdraw.” ]—and get him to do something about Armed Forces pay now—chop, chop?
The Prime Minister
The answer to the first part of the question is “Yes, Sir, on all occasions.” As regards the second part of the question, what the hon. and gallant Member said may not be out of order, but I hope that you, Mr. Speaker, will indicate that you do not regard it as in very good taste.
Mr. Crawshaw
Does the Prime Minister realise that what he said today will appeal to those who are interested in the defence of the country? Does he agree that, whereas for 33 years this country has lived in peace under the threat of the atomic bomb, it may be [column 1207]that the neutron bomb will provide such terror that war will be abolished from the face of the word for ever?
The Prime Minister
The neutron bomb and its serious effects are now being used by the Soviet Union as a propaganda cover to prevent discussion of some of the other serious weapons being developed. I want to ensure that this is on the record. Mr. Brezhnev can help in this matter if, instead of focusing propaganda on the neutron bomb, he will enter into serious discussions at the United Nations or elsewhere on how we are to deal with some of the other weapons that are now being developed and on which research is taking place. There is a formidable prospect facing the world on this particular matter. I do not want to see the world destroyed by our terror. Nor do I want us to succumb to blackmail by someone else's terror. It is in that spirit that I think we must approach this matter.
On 1st February the United Kingdom submitted a draft programme of action to the United Nations which called for the following: first, to curb the accumulation and development of nuclear weapons by international agreement; secondly, to agree on a treaty to assure the world that those who renounce the nuclear weapon will not have it used against them; thirdly, to extend confidence-building measures which are in operation in Europe to other parts of the world, fourthly, to arrive at a comprehensive test ban treaty as quickly as possible. This is the kind of programme that I want to put forward as quickly as possible.
Mr. Churchill
What discussions have Ministers had with the Soviet Government about the recent development of the mobile intermediate-range SS20 missile, which has a destructive potential literally thousands of times greater than the theatre nuclear neutron bomb?
The Prime Minister
For once I find myself in agreement with the hon. Member for Stretford (Mr. Churchill). The SS20 is a more dangerous weapon than the neutron bomb. That is why I do not want to focus attention on a single weapon. There are weapons on both sides that must enter into a comprehensive disarmament discussion.
[column 1208]Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I, through you, explain that I meant nothing personal a moment ago in my reference to the Secretary of State for Defence? I wish, however, to draw an important point to the attention of the Prime Minister——
Mr. Speaker
Order. The House will have heard the hon. and gallant Gentleman's explanation.
TUC
Q2. Mr. Rifkind
asked the Prime Minister when he last met the General Secretary of the Trades Union Congress.
The Prime Minister
I met representatives of the TUC, including the General Secretary, when I took the chair at a meeting of NEDC on 1st February.
Mr. Rifkind
Does the Prime Minister still endorse the recipe for political success that he once gave to Lord Wigg—namely, to wait until the trade unions decide their line and then follow it? Has the Prime Minister said to Mr. Moss Evans, who yesterday gave his support to collective bargaining, that in his view we have free collective bargaining at present?
The Prime Minister
I do not think that the trade unions believe that I always and universally follow their view. I believe that the partnership between the trade union movement and the Government of the day in this complex industrial society is the best way to govern Britain. That has been proved by results in the last four years.
Mr. Heffer
Does the Prime Minister recall that he also met the General Secretary of the TUC this morning? Would he like to say something about unemployment? Is it not clear that, although we can welcome the reductions that are taking place, we need further measures to help the construction industry and a boost in the economy really to begin to bring down the unemployment figures?
The Prime Minister
There was an improvement in the employment figures today. It was a welcome improvement of 39,000. There was also an increase in the number of vacancies. However, in this and in such matters as the balance of payments I do not think that we should [column 1209]make too much of one month's figures. There has been an improvement in the unemployment figures in the last four and possibly five months. The construction industry has suffered, but a substantial boost has been given to it by increased financial assistance. Apart from that, I think that we had better await the Budget on 11th April.
Mrs. Thatcher
Can James Callaghanthe Prime Minister account for the fact that unemployment is still worse here than in any of the major industrial competitor countries?
The Prime Minister
That is not, of course, totally true. I have looked at the situation. I could give exceptions. What is true is that the United Kingdom unemployment since the war—I was looking at these figures this morning—has been consistently higher than that of the Federal Republic of Germany or of France, for deep-seated reasons which we have discussed in the House. It is now our task to improve that situation. If the right hon. Lady looks over the range of years at the worsening that has taken place since 1973, she will find that the United Kingdom position has in no sense become relatively worse. It has not become relatively worse than that of our major competitors.
Mrs. Thatcher
When one calculates these figures on a comparable basis—they are given in that way in OECD figures and in Hansard—unemployment is worse here than in the United States, France, West Germany and Italy. Surely that is a great reflection on the Government, but the Prime Minister seems to have no proposals to put it right.
The Prime Minister
The right hon. Lady is not right again. I have gone into the figures with some considerable care. What she overlooks are the very great manpower measures which have been undertaken by the Government and which have saved the jobs of several hundred thousand people. It is a record of which no other country can boast.
On the general situation, the Leader of the Opposition agreed that inflation was the biggest single evil to overcome. That was in the Conservatives' last manifesto. We believe that that is so. We are now overcoming it. It is now in single figures and will continue in single figures for a long time to come. That [column 1210]will enable us to build a healthy economy again.
I do not disguise the present situation. The people want to know the truth. They know that in a world recession, with nearly 17 million people out of work in the OECD countries, the situation will become worse this year unless there is a faster rate of growth in the Western industrialised countries. We depend upon that rate of growth for our exports to increase and for jobs to be found.
Mrs. Thatcher
The Prime Minister still avoids the point. Under identical world circumstances, our competitors have done better than this Government. How does the Prime Minister account for that?
The Prime Minister
Under identical circumstances, no other Government were left with a money supply that was increasing at a rate of 28 per cent. The right hon. Lady should be ashamed of having been a member of a Government which allowed inflation to roar away in the manner that it did.
We have now repaired the damage that the right hon. Lady did. We shall go on repairing it. We shall ensure that the rate of inflation does not in any way approach what it was when the Conservatives left office. [Hon. Members: “8.4 per cent. 8.4 per cent.” ] There used to be a case for individual heckling, but the mindless chant has not only destroyed public meetings but it tends to make it impossible to reply to questions. I shall continue for a moment. I want to make it clear that the inflation rate is going down lower than it was when the Conservatives were in office. It will remain that way. Exports are increasing faster than when the Conservatives were in office. We are now rebuilding the financial stability of the country and trying to get it back on course. The Conservatives left us in sheer despair in 1973.
PRIME MINISTER
(ENGAGEMENTS)
Q3. Mr. Pattie
asked the Prime Minister whether he will list his official engagements for 21st February.
The Prime Minister
In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be holding [column 1211]meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. This evening I hope to have an audience of Her Majesty the Queen.
Mr. Pattie
Will the Prime Minister take time to reflect today that our economic well-being depends vitally upon our ability to compete in world markets? Further, is he aware, in spite of what he said on the question of our having higher unemployment in this country than is suffered by our competitors around the world, that productivity in this country is static and that output has not yet reached the level achieved in 1973? Why is he so self-satisfied about this, and what is he doing about it?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Member is only repeating points that I have made time after time from this Dispatch Box, without always commanding full support from the Conservatives. I am glad to see that the hon. Member has not returned to the charge he made in The Times this morning about the remarkable duplicity of the Defence Estimates.
Mr. Clemitson
Will my right hon. Friend take time to point out to the Leader of the Opposition that, whereas employment in this country is as high today as it was at the beginning of the decade, in Germany there has been a loss of well over 1.5 million jobs?
The Prime Minister
That is true, and it is also true that the Opposition have consistently voted against all the measures that the Government have introduced to save jobs, whether that be in the motor car industry, in the shipbuilding industry or elsewhere. On the manufacturing side, there are more people at work today in Britain than there were a year ago. This number will continue to increase. In common with other Western countries, we are facing a substantial short-term increase in the number of young people reaching the age of 15 or 16. This situation will last for two or three years and will be followed by a substantial decline. Therefore, far more people will be coming on to the employment register seeking work for many years.
Several Hon. Members
rose——
Mr. Speaker
Order. We must now move on. I allowed extra time because we were a minute late in starting Prime Minister's Questions.