TUC
Q1. Mr. Ioan Evans
asked the Prime Minister when he next plans to meet the TUC.
The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan)
I refer my hon. Friend to [column 266]the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Hazel Grove (Mr. Arnold) on 8th November.
Mr. Evans
Has my right hon. Friend read the Richard Dimbleby lecture, delivered by Jack Jones, on the human face of labour? Does he agree that the most important pact that the Government have is with the trade unions? Will he, therefore, seek to transform the social contract into a Socialist contract so that the workers who have been sacrificed in recent years can reap the benefits in the years ahead?
The Prime Minister
Yes, I have read a summary of that lecture. I thought that it was well worth while and I congratulate Mr. Jones on what he said. Of course, the foundation of any Government's success in this country—and, indeed, in other countries—is a good working relationship with the trade union movement. As I move among Prime Ministers and others from other countries, I find that the relationship established in this country is in some cases a source of envy to them.
Mrs. Thatcher
Will James Callaghanthe Prime Minister take the opportunity to remind the TUC that the pay in the pocket of the average worker this Christmas will buy less than at any Christmas since 1969 and that that is the practical result of Socialism?
The Prime Minister
I shall check on the right hon. Lady's figures, because if, as I suspect, they come from the hon. Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit) I should not accept them without double checking.
As regards the general position, there has not been any attempt on the part of responsible people to deny that the result of the increases in oil prices, among other factors, meant a lowering of the standard of life of people in this and other countries. I am glad to say we are now recovering from that situation. The tax remissions that the Chancellor was able to give in the autumn and in the summer are helping. If we get reasonable settlements on pay during the next 12 months, there can be further tax remissions, and those, together with the fact that we are overcoming inflation, will result in a real and substantial increase in the standard of life of the people of this country in 1978.
[column 267]Mr. Norman Atkinson
Will the Prime Minister reiterate the last statement that he has just made? Will he clear up any ambiguity that may exist among TUC people in the sense that he is now saying that there is no necessity for any worker to take a further reduction in his living standards this year? Indeed, he should go beyond that because, according to my right hon. Friend, workers can expect an increase in their living standards as we move towards the end of this financial year.
The Prime Minister
This will be a real increase. I gladly reiterate it if my hon. Friend did not comprehend what I was saying. A moderate increase in earnings, coupled with a reduction in taxation—which is possible next spring—together with the fact that we are overcoming inflation, which is expected to be in single figures next year, will lead to a substantial improvement in the standard of life for the first time for some years. That is worth working for. That is why I reiterate the necessity for moderate increases in earnings, not fantastic increases of 20 per cent. and 30 per cent. Such increases would mean that inflation would go up, that we could not make tax cuts and that there would be a general reduction rather than an improvement in standards.
Mr. Baker
Before the Prime Minister sees the TUC, will he have a word with the Secretary of State for Energy, who said last night that what Britain needs even more than more Labour Government is more Socialism? Does the Prime Minister agree with that sentiment, which was so well cheered from below the Gangway?
The Prime Minister
There are no differences between the Secretary of State for Energy and myself.
Mr. Pardoe
Will the Prime Minister accept that never mind increases in earnings of 20 per cent. or 30 per cent., the current spate of forecasts in the private sector is that earnings will average an increase of 17 per cent. during the period of the Government's guidelines? Does the Prime Minister recognise that these forecasts, coupled with leaks from the Treasury that its computer confirms that figure, are likely to be self-fulfilling? What will the Prime Minister do to intro[column 268]duce a pay policy which will stop earnings rising at 17 per cent. over the 12 months of this pay policy?
The Prime Minister
The only point on which I agree with the hon. Gentleman is that this ridiculous kind of forecasting——
Mr. Skinner
Slap him down.
The Prime Minister
—which seems to be the biggest growth industry in this country, tends to become self-fulfilling. I wish that we could have far fewer forecasts and more people concentrating on what is actually happening.
WEST DRAYTON
Q2. Mr. Trotter
asked the Prime Minister whether he will pay a visit to West Drayton.
The Prime Minister
I have at present no plans to do so.
Mr. Trotter
Will the Prime Minister visit RAF West Drayton and talk to the hundreds of Service men there who have to take part-time jobs wrapping chocolates to keep their wives and families? Will he explain to them why the rates of Service pay have fallen so far behind those for comparable jobs, or is he content that Service men should be forced to be chocolate-box soldiers?
The Prime Minister
We all want Service men to be properly paid, and it will be for the Armed Forces Pay Review Body to come forward with appropriate proposals next spring.
This practice of doing second jobs has, I understand, operated for some time and has been contained in Queen's Regulations for many years. I believe that in an area such as West Drayton it is a practice that has gone on for a long time. However, the hon. Gentleman will no doubt agree that it is better to have two jobs than to have none at all, which is what would happen as a result of his vote last night in the shipbuilding debate.
Mr. Ashley
On this question of part-time jobs, does the Prime Minister agree that far too many hon. Members, especially Tory Members, have too many part-time jobs, and that membership of the House is a full-time job for every Member of Parliament?
[column 269]The Prime Minister
I believe that political moonlighting is a tradition of the House. Some occupations are more valuable and socially useful than others. As far as the Opposition are concerned, I have a feeling——
Mr. Ridley
“Hodge” .
The Prime Minister
I am not sure what the hon. Gentleman is referring to. If he has any smear to make, after his Watergate smear, no doubt he will get to his feet and make it.
Mr. Shersby
Is the Prime Minister aware that my constituents in West Drayton who serve Her Majesty in the Royal Air Force are totally disillusioned with the attitude of the Government and their refusal to restore comparability of Service pay with outside pay, and, moreover, that they are utterly dismayed by the virtual total absence of the Labour Party from the House of Commons last Friday when the subject of Forces pay was debated? Is the Prime Minister aware that if he had planned to visit West Drayton he would have received a very hot reception indeed? Will he now explain to the House when he proposes to restore comparability?
The Prime Minister
The Armed Forces need to be properly remunerated, as do the police, firemen, and all other public services. However, they are part of the community, and the burdens that are borne by the community cannot be exempted in their case.
The job of the House of Commons, as I hope all hon. Members agree, is to try to secure fair play for the Armed Forces, but that does not exempt them from the burdens which others have to carry. Everyone understands, except the Opposition in their more irresponsible moments—certainly the public understands—that we are succeeding in what we are doing. That is why we retain the support of the public.
Mr. Bryan Davies
Given that the forecasting ability of the Treasury computer is held in high regard only by the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe), could it be put to better use in totting up the demands of the Conservatives for increases in public expenditure and presenting the nation with an accurate bill on that account?
[column 270]The Prime Minister
I am obliged to my hon. Friend for his suggestion. I am now compiling a list, which I hope to produce at an appropriate moment.
Sir Ian Gilmour
Will the Prime Minister clarify the position of the Armed Forces Pay Review Body? Is he aware that on Friday the Minister of State, Ministry of Defence admitted that it was not an independent body? In a rare moment of frankness, the hon. Gentleman stated:
“It is recommended to make recommendations.” —[Official Report, 9th December 1977; Vol 940, c. 1947.]
Will the Prime Minister therefore, stop trying to hide behind the skirts of the Armed Forces Pay Review Body and say that what the Government intend to do?
The Prime Minister
With respect, that remark hardly seems up to the right hon. Gentleman's usual standard. He knows the functions of the Armed Forces Pay Review Body. It takes evidence and makes recommendations to the Government, who then reach conclusions. That procedure has been followed for some years. It was established as a result of all-party agreement, and we shall continue to follow it.
PRIME MINISTER
(ENGAGEMENTS)
Q3. Mr. Viggers
asked the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 13th December 1977.
The Prime Minister
This morning, President Giscard and I completed our discussions at Chequers which began yesterday. I will, with permission, make a statement about this at the end of Question Time. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be holding further meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. This evening, I hope to have an audience of Her Majesty the Queen.
Mr. Viggers
As part of his official duties this afternoon, will the Prime Minister clarify the voluntary pay code? Since the Scottish Council of the Labour Party has rejected the 10 per cent. wage guidelines out of hand, how will he persuade it to volunteer anything?
The Prime Minister
I do not suppose I shall.
[column 271]Mr. Ron Thomas
I wonder whether, in the midst of a very busy day, my right hon. Friend will spare a moment to consider the decision which was recently made not to allow Back Benchers to discuss the Supplementary Estimates on defence. We had to allow another £400-odd million to go through on the nod. May I appeal to my right hon. Friend to ensure that Back Benchers are not deprived of the opportunity to discuss Supplementary Estimates in future years?
The Prime Minister
In consultation with my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, I shall look into the matter. How the House can control expenditure has been a difficult issue for as long as I have been here. Control may have slipped, in which case we should try to restore it. However, when matters of public expenditure arise, I feel that it is for the House to choose the subjects it debates. It would have been possible yesterday—although I realise that it was appropriate to debate a more interesting subject—for the House to discuss the matter.
Mr. Raison
Is the Prime Minister aware that under the Scotland Bill it would be possible for the Scottish Assembly to pay its servants substantially more than the United Kingdom Government were paying their servants? Does the Prime Minister think that that would make for a manageable incomes policy?
The Prime Minister
I have always understood that such issues were raised when a Bill was in Committee, not at Question Time.
Mr. Stan Crowther
Will my right hon. Friend be able to find time to congratulate the men who work on E furnace in the Templeborough melting shop in my constituency, who last week produced steel at what would be an average annual rate [Interruption.]—hon. Members should try it—of 74.2 tonnes an hour, which is almost certainly a world record and far in advance of the latest Japanese figures? Is not my right hon. Friend as tired as I am of hearing from the Opposition how marvellous the Japanese are? Does he not agree that our steel workers are as good as the best in the world, given the opportunity?
The Prime Minister
As the Christmas spirit seems to be spreading rather rap[column 272]idly, I cannot think of a better commercial on which to congratulate my hon. Friend. I hope that the whole House will join in congratulating the steel workers on the record that they have set up. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.” ] If it will help, I shall be glad to send them a Christmas card.