PRIME MINISTER (ENGAGEMENTS)
Q1. Mr. Wyn Roberts
asked the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for 26th July.
The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan)
In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be holding meetings with ministerial colleagues and others.
Mr. Roberts
I assure you, Mr. Speaker, that I believe that my shot will certainly not be a shot in the dark, or, if it is, I hope that it will lighten the darkness on the Government side. What callous comment has the Prime Minister to make on today's unemployment figure of 1⋅63 million? Second, in view of the Liberal Party meeting and tomorrow's NEC meeting, will the right hon. Gentleman spare a thought today about where [column 298]he stands on matters of political principle, if he has any?
The Prime Minister
As I have forecast, the unemployment figures are disappointing—[Hon. Members: “Disappointing?” ]—and they are of a size which shows the extent to which we still have to move in this direction. They are, of course, affected by the growth in the work force, which over the past two or three years has grown by about 500,000. They are affected also by the levels of inflation and by the extent of the world recession. These are all matters on which we are continuing to work, and by overcoming inflation we shall help that situation.
Q2. Mr. Viggers
asked the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 26th July 1977.
The Prime Minister
I refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave earlier today to the hon. Member for Conway (Mr. Roberts).
Mr. Viggers
In the course of his official duties, will the Prime Minister comment again on the unemployment figures? Does he realise that they represent 1,614,000 personal tragedies, and is he aware that such figures would have been inconceivable four years ago? How much worse do the figures have to be before his Government and those who sustain them in power realise that we need a change of policies or, better still, a change of Government?
The Prime Minister
I appreciate the significance and seriousness of this matter. I appreciate also the extent to which there has been benefit through the total number of workers who have been helped by the Government's special measures, such as the temporary employment subsidy, the job creation scheme and other such schemes. All of these are currently helping about 313,000 people. As regards change, I listened closely to the debate last week. I heard no suggestion whatever from the Opposition about policies which would have improved the present figure. All I heard were further ways of cutting public expenditure, which would increase it.
Mr. Speaker
I wish to indicate to the House that I intend to allow supplementary questions on the last of these [column 299]Questions, No. Q5, to run on because we shall not reach the substantive Questions.
Mr. Fairbairn
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Now that we live in a non-deferential society, are we required to bow to your ruling?
Mr. Speaker
Order. I believe that the hon. and learned Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Mr. Fairbairn) was not getting at me, but at somebody else.
Q3. Mr. Moonman
asked the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for 26th July.
The Prime Minister
I refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave earlier to the hon. Member for Conway (Mr. Roberts).
Mr. Moonman
Will the Prime Minister take the opportunity of making a statement, either today or at some other time before the Summer Recess, about implementation of the report of the Royal Commission on the Press, with particular regard to the key areas about strengthening the Press Council—which was the majority view of the Commission—and to the sort of aid that might be given by the State to newspapers in difficulties?
The Prime Minister
On the first matter, I certainly have much sympathy with that proposal, but the report was not published until three weeks ago and we have given until 31st December for consultation, discussion and proposals, including comments on the proposals in the minority report as well as in the majority one. We prefer to reserve our views until then. Help for newspapers in difficulty is an issue that should be considered at the same time.
Q4. Mr. Neubert
asked the Prime Minister whether he will list his official engagements for 26th July 1977.
The Prime Minister
I refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave earlier to the hon. Member for Conway (Mr. Roberts).
Mr. Neubert
Before we rise for the recess, will the Prime Minister set the Lord President—as a former working journalist—the holiday task of writing the Crossman memoirs on the Callaghan Cabinet? Should not future historians know the precise self-serving circumstances in which the principle of collec[column 300]tive responsibility was abandoned and Ministers allowed to vote against their own legislation?
The Prime Minister
I should be happy to leave my literary and historical fate in the hands of my right hon. Friend. I am sure that he would do it justice and, with his great pen, this Administration could have no better chronicler.
Q5. Mr. Ashley
asked the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for 26th July.
The Prime Minister
I refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave earlier to the hon. Member for Conway (Mr. Roberts).
Mr. Ashley
On the substantial if not substantive question of a return to free collective bargaining, if the Prime Minister discusses that matter today, will he recognise that, although it may correct the anomalies that have arisen during the pay policy, it will recreate the one of the most basic inequalities—that of the virtual poverty of low-paid workers, for whom the Government have done little in spite of the pay policy? Will my right hon. Friend dispel the prevalent myth that low-paid workers have done well during the pay policy and say what the Government propose to do to help them?
The Prime Minister
Low-paid workers have done relatively better, but that does not mean that they have done absolutely better as a result of the last two rounds of the pay policy. It is—and has been—Government policy to try to help families, especially those on low pay, by a number of measures of which my hon. Friend is aware.
It is part of the system and one of the weaknesses of free collective bargaining that the rewards do not necessarily accord with social justice or the value of the work done. The rewards may do so sometimes, but not necessarily or always. However, the trade unions have indicated that they wish to return to the system of free collective bargaining and we must work within that context.
Mrs. Thatcher
To return to the unemployment level of 6.8 per cent.—a level that we have not seen in this country since the 1930s—will James Callaghanthe Prime Minister now accept responsibility for unemployment and stop peddling the illusion that [column 301]all the economic indicators are going in the right direction?
The Prime Minister
The responsibility for unemployment rests with a number of factors of which the Government are willing to accept their share. Those factors include the level of inflation in this country, the world recession, against which British trade is doing extremely well—for example, our volume of exports was up by 6 per cent. in the last quarter—and a number of other such matters. While everyone should undoubtedly take this matter seriously, it is in nobody's interest to pretend that there is a magic solution. If there were such a solution, we might have heard it last week.
As for the second part of the right hon. Lady's question, she will find that I have said consistently that the indicators generally are turning in our favour. I should like to enumerate them. The retail price index is slowing down, there is upward pressure on the pound sterling, the balance of payments is moving into surplus, manufacturing investment is increasing, export volume is up, import volume pretty stationary, the mortgage interest rates are going down, and the reserves are up. Those are sufficient indicators to show that generally they are turning in our favour.
Mr. John Mendelson
Does the Prime Minister accept—in spite of all the protestations of the Leader of the Opposition and some of her supporters—the view expressed this morning in the City and on the Stock Exchange—[Interruption.] That reaction is quite expected. The view was that the policy always demanded by the Opposition has been responsible for the unemployment level, because during the last 18 months there has not been enough distribution of money in wages and salaries? Will the Prime Minister now completely reject the counsel of the Opposition and start the process of reflation which is the only hope for getting us out of this level of unemployment?
The Prime Minister
I agree that we must try to obtain growth in the economy as soon as we have overcome the rate of inflation. That is essential and it is something upon which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has already made moves through the last Budget. My right hon. Friend injected about £2¼ billion into the economy this year and that made a start. [column 302]As for rejecting the policies of the Opposition, had we adopted them there would now be hundreds of thousands of people out of work in Leyland and Chrysler on both of which matters the Opposition opposed our policy.
Mr. Wigley
In view of the disastrous unemployment figures for Wales that were announced today, will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider the dismantling of the regional policy that the Government have followed by, for example, doing away with the regional employment premium? Will he institute positive economic planning to overcome these problems in Wales and other areas?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman is totally mistaken. I was discussing last week with a number of people in Wales the great boom that will come from the steel investment of £835 million at Margam, the £40 million investment project at Hoover at Merthyr Tydfil, of which the Government will supply about £10 million, and from a host of other schemes by which we are helping to maintain the Welsh industrial structure. I assure the hon. Gentleman, as he does not seem to know much about the subject, that that structure is now much more resilient than it was 30 years ago.
Mr. Kinnock
Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is only one thing that is less convincing than a nationalist who wants a reflationary policy and who supports the Leader of the Opposition, and that is the Leader of the Opposition herself who, as a Tory arch monetarist with an ideological opposition to equality, has absolutely no authority or right to come to the House to berate my right hon. Friend about our employment policies when the deliberate intention of the Tory Party is to introduce mass unemployment as the best means of controlling the working class?
The Prime Minister
I do not know how Plaid Cymru will be able to defend in Wales its consistent support of the Tory Opposition that is trying to create further unemployment by its monetary and fiscal measures.
Mr. Henderson
Is the Prime Minister aware that within the global figure there are 194,000 unemployed in Scotland? He claims that no alternative policies were put forward in our recent economic [column 303]debate, but will he read my speech on that occasion and take urgent steps to increase the budget of the Scottish Development Agency? If he is not satisfied that the Secretary of State for Scotland is taking this action, will he replace him with someone who can?
The Prime Minister
I am satisfied that the Secretary of State is taking the necessary action. I repeat, through the House, to the country that the first essential is to overcome inflation. If we have wage and earnings increases that exceed 20 per cent., there will be nothing to stop unemployment going higher. Our first task is to overcome this, and I ask for the support of everyone in the country in doing so.
Mr. Noble
Will my right hon. Friend have talks with Ministers in the Department of Trade about the collapse of discussions on the Multi-Fibre Arrangement? Will he give an assurance to the workers and the industry in this country that, come what may, the Government will give them the support they need?
The Prime Minister
Negotiations on the MFA were brought to a halt yesterday because of the failure to secure agreement between a number of countries. Australia, India and Brazil, as well as EEC countries, had difficulties about the proposals. There must now be a series of bilateral discussions that I hope will lead to our being able to sign the protocol towards the end of the year and to renew the MFA. In any case, our textile industry cannot be allowed to dwindle away. We must do our best to ensure that there is international agreement—my hon. Friend has advocated that as the best solution—but, short of that, we shall have to think of turning to bilateral solutions.
Mr. Prior
The Government are responsible for unemployment and it is to the Government that the country must look for an improvement in the figures. Is it not a fact that while the Labour Party was in opposition it trumpeted across the Dispatch Box that there was a magic cure? Have not the Government's economic policies failed totally, and is not the Prime Minister aware that it is no substitute for a policy to start blaming the Opposition?
The Prime Minister
I do not accept that the Government's policies are not succeeding. They have been shown con[column 304]sistently to be succeeding. That is why, every time there appears to be a threat of the Government being challenged, there is a substantial decline in confidence at home and overseas. As to the future, the House and the country must accept that the world's unemployment figures—[Interruption.] I accept the correction and exclude those countries where the Governments can take dictatorial powers, In the Western industrialised world we are going through a phase in which unemployment, in percentage and actual terms, is higher than ever. This is true in many countries, and, despite the discussions that the leaders of the Western world have been having, it has not been possible to find a solution to the problem. There is a great challenge to society here and I am not going to pretend that there is a quick or easy way out.