MT Speaking
Yes. You can never tell with elections. Where you have got a government that's in almost on a knife edge you can never tell what'll happen. They've got no margin to deal with the unexpected. But if there is another pact, then on a motion of confidence the Liberals will support them. But I take the view that the longer they go on, the worse their fortunes will be in the General Election. But I just would naturally prefer that we could have a go fairly soon.
Stuart McNeill, Tyne Tees TV
But there is no reason why it shouldn't go on until 1979, is there?
MT
Provided he can still keep a majority, no. Unless, as I say, sometimes the unexpected happens. But we'll be ready whenever it comes. The fact is that each day is one day less for the Labour Government now.
Stuart McNeill, Tyne Tees TV
Of course, one thing it could founder on is Phase 3. Now the Liberals are bound to want very tight controls on Phase 3. Now you Conservatives are not awfully keen on incomes policy. Does that mean you'd be happy to see a wages free for all after Phase 2?
MT
Don't forget that we have actually had experience of handling a statutory incomes policy, and the Liberals have had no experience directly of handling anything. We know … I've been in … while I've been in Parliament we've had four incomes policies. We know from experience that the tricky time always comes in Phase 3 because in the earlier stages you've built in so many rigidities that somehow your skilled people feel that they haven't had a fair crack of the whip. And they're right. They haven't. And you can't ignore this. I think it is reasonable to expect that you do have a year between wage claims. But you come round places like this and the factories I have been round this morning. I believe that many of them would be far better making their own bargains in relation to their own output, because the trouble with incomes policy is that people put the emphasis on the incomes. You get inflation if there is a great difference between incomes and output. So the factories that are doing well really do deserve to have rather more than those which have not got the extra production.
Stuart McNeill, Tyne Tees TV
If the Labour Government's having such a devil of a job getting a settlement with the trade unions, how on earth can you Conservatives get one? [end p1]
MT
But … I think we've just really rather dealt with that. [Smiles] There's no … It would appear that there's going to be no Phase 3. It always puzzles why some people think that the shop stewards on the site are so irresponsible that they cannot in fact negotiate well for their own people. Whatever makes you think that? The shop stewards I meet as I go round—and many of them union officials … . Some of them of course bargain centrally, as in engineering, then you get site bargaining afterwards. I often find—time after time—I think it is 75 per cent of the factories that I go around you get commonsense and reasonableness and knowledge of what is happening on that site. No blanket agreement can ever take that into account and I think it is quite wrong to insinuate that people who are working in factories and on site would be irresponsible in their bargaining.
Stuart McNeill, Tyne Tees TV
If there is to be a General Election this autumn what message will you be taking to the country, in particular to this part of the world which is predominantly working class?
MT
That basically we've got to have more incentives for those people who work jolly hard. I feel, as I come around here, people say “We work extremely hard” . Sometimes when they do they get not only extra tax, which cuts down their pay packet, but they also get complications with the way the extra £6 on Phase 1 operated. So the main message is: “We work very hard and at the end of the day there is nothing to show for it, except a falling standard of living” . That's not right. Those who work jolly hard must be able to have good pay and also enough left out of that good pay to make them feel that it is worthwhile.